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FAQ 1.2 Zero Visibility Zone changes

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Jan 28, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    (PAG 134) VISIBILITY CONDITION Zero Visibility Zone:
    • Troopers cannot draw LoF into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone.
    • Any Trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone treats the Zero Visibility Zone as a Poor Visibility Zone when drawing LoF to the attacker.

    --

    Noting that the only thing that Poor Visibility Zone does is apply a -6 MOD to skills that require LOF and that MSV interacts with this MOD.

    --

    So, it seems like the way the rules changed this;
    a) Sixth Sense no longer removes the -6 malus because Sixth Sense doesn't do anything to Poor Visibility Zone MODs and
    b) Makes MSV1 reduce the -6 to a -3 if the opponent responds to a BS Attack with a BS Attack

    This may or may not be intentional.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Why though?

    They removed Zero Visibility's -6 malus on return fire through smoke completely and they are now relying on the MOD from Poor Visibility Zone.
    Note that MSV1 still has a -6 MOD when shooting through a Zero Visibility Zone.
     
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  3. Gwynbleidd

    Gwynbleidd Non asto coram malo

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    Interesting… I haven’t checked faq 1.2 yet but I will certainly look. Do you think we should ask @HellLois for further clarification?
     
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  4. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    So as soon as the active trooper is targeted by the reactive trooper with a BS Attack the MSV bearing trooper will apply only the MODs for the PVZ. This means on the other hand the MSV 1's -6 MOD only applies if the reactive trooper does anything else than declaring a BS Attack ARO

    As a sidenote Visibility Zone MODs aren't applied to the Dodge skill this nothing changes in that account

    Another sidenote: If I did decipher the intent behind this change correctly this is actually a very nice and elegant way to blance out non-6thS MSV1 troopers with MSV1 troopers commonly found in core links.
     
    #4 Tristan228, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Also brings up a question of how does a White Noise Zone/Albedo work vs MSV now? It says treat as ZVZ as a PVZ for drawing LoF, and MSV would ignore the -6 for a PVZ...
     
  6. shokeyshah

    shokeyshah Active Member

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    Signed into the Forums to ask the exact same question. There seems to be an unintended interaction with White Noise + MSV troopers, effectively allowing MSV2 to totally ignore White Noise RAW.
     
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  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And Albedo. If so, doesn't change any current tactics, since a 6th Sense MSV trooper already did, but if means it shifts a ZVZ to a PVZ for MSV only, then that's a nice new tweak to take on stacked Fireteams.
     
  8. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    I guess since WN / Albedo are specifically ZVZs only for MSVs the PVZ will be applied like it would be for non-MSV troopers.
     
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    That makes the most sense, but I personally would like to see a bullet making it explicit. "White Noise Zones will apply these effects to MSV troopers" or such.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's what the White Noise Zone rules say, isn't it?

    A White Noise Zone acts as a Zero Visibility Zone, but only for Troopers equipped with a Multispectral Visor of any Level, or any other piece of Equipment that specifies the same.​
     
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  11. shokeyshah

    shokeyshah Active Member

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    But for vanilla players like me, who rely on White Noise to fight solo MSV troopers (it never worked before against SS+MSV) it is game-breaking.

    Effectively the rules right now say that there is no counter to MSV. It seems that the intent may have been to buff MSV links to make the extra cost worthwhile, but this interaction urgently needs attention because it effectively buffs MSV in all cases by destroying the utility of WN/Albedo.
     
  12. shokeyshah

    shokeyshah Active Member

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    It's the bit about treating the ZVZ as a PVZ and then the bit in MSV about ignoring PVZ mods that I think may be the issue.
     
  13. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Yeah, reading through it again and discussing it in our local Discord, our consensus is that it's a PZV for drawing LoF, and remains a ZVZ for determining MODs.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The logic hasn't changed one bit, though.
    MSV2 has two primary effects; one is to see through Zero Visibility Zones and one that reduces Poor Visibility Zones from -6 to -0.

    White Noise has one effect; it is a Zero Visibility Zone for MSV users only. Same now as before the FAQ.
    Ergo -> If they are shot through it, it will be a Poor Visibility Zone for MSV users only.
    Same logic before FAQ, same logic after FAQ. If you made it work before the FAQ so that you couldn't see through White Noise with MSV, you can apply the same method to see that MSV users will have -6 MOD when returning fire through a White Noise Zone.
     
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  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm having trouble following the twists, so apologies if this is off-base. But, the FAQ still has the previous entry that says:

    How do Sixth Sense, Zero Visibility Zones and
    Multipectral Visor Level 1 interact?
    If the Trooper with Multispectral Visor Level 1 and
    Sixth Sense is the target of a BS Attack through a
    Zero Visibility Zone, they ignore the -6 MOD for
    drawing LoF through the Zero Visibility Zone.

    We know that the MSV1 wouldn't reduce the -6 MOD to 0, so it must be that Sixth Sense still reduces the MOD to 0 even though the MOD is now coming from a PVZ.
     
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  16. Gwynbleidd

    Gwynbleidd Non asto coram malo

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    @Mahtamori and @A Mão Esquerda , thanks for the clarification on this, it was one of the main questions I had. I have others but it appears that they’re being discussed in detail on this thread back and forth so I will watch as the answers unfold.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is changed effectively with the FAQ alteration - even as some state the "back channels" mean the rules are meant to be read.

    How Zero Visibility Zones used to work with LOF is that it granted the ability to respond with an ARO even if you did not have LOF - but it did not grant LOF - so if you had an enemy act inside your ZoC you would still eat the -3 to Dodge for having an opponent be active in your ZoC even if you didn't get any negative MOD from being shot through the Zone. Now that the rules defer to Poor Visibility Zones which allows real LOF to be drawn through it, you no longer eat the -3 to Dodge
     
  18. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    The way I’m following the potential background thinking is that

    1. Normal Smoke imposes a ZVZ for non-MSV.
    2. MSV1 Treats the Normal Smoke ZVZ as a Poor Vis Zone.
    3. MSV2+ treats the Normal Smoke ZVZ as non-Existent.
    4. Eclipse Smoke imposes a ZVZ for all.
    5. White Noise Zone imposes a ZVZ for MSV users only.

    The modifiers really only apply to question a MSV1 user.

    Being
    1. MSV1 Shoots at a target in a normal smoke zone that dodges = -6 to the roll, and the unit dodging at normal.
    2. MSV1 Shooter without Sixth Sense shoots at target who shoots/pre conducts a skill that makes it a ftf back from inside a Normal Smoke Zone = -3 with the non-MSV user taking -6
    3. MSV1User with Sixth Sense shooting at a target in Normal Smoke zone who shoots back from the Normal Smoke Zone = 0 with the Non-MSV trooper taking -6 on the roll
     
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  19. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Considering these two entries are from the same FAQ and they seem to contradict each other I'm completely lost here.
    Does this mean that 6s has some sort of priority over ZVZ rules and is applied before?
    Or maybe the 2 rule is literally about drawing LoF but the mods stay the same as before. But this doesn't change anything so why would they put that in FAQ?
    Or did they just forgot to delete the first rule?
    Or am I just missing something that makes these two not contradict each other?

    Edit:
    Let's assume that 6s just let's us ignore all the mods like it used to. How about units without 6s.
    Smoke:
    No MSV:
    Cannot shot on its own if it's not a target of BS.
    If it is a target of BS it can respond with -6 for PVZ.
    MSV1:
    Can shoot without being targeted but it will suffer -6 from ZVZ.
    If it's a target of BS it starts treating smoke as PVZ and due to MSV1 it treats that as LVZ applying only -3.
    White noise:
    MSV1:
    Cannot shot on its own if it's not a target of BS.
    If it is a target of BS it can respond, and it seems like according to new FAQ it treats white noise as PVZ and again due to MSV1 it changes that into LVZ and apply only -3?
    MSV2/3
    Cannot shot on its own if it's not a target of BS.
    If it is a target of BS it can respond, and it seems like according to new FAQ it treats white noise as PVZ and due to MSV2/3 it ignores all the mods even without 6s?
     
    #19 Amusedbymuse, Jan 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2022
  20. Bobman

    Bobman MERC

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    It's supposed to be treated as if, so not overriding Sixth Sense removing the mod.
     
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