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FAQ 1.0 - Invalid ARO declaration, p.61 and p.21

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arhnayel, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. Arhnayel

    Arhnayel Member

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    Hi !

    ---
    Long, very long post here. I apologize in advance for all the mistakes I could (will?) do writing this text. English is not my primary language... please be nice! :-)

    I still don't understand something, and I am very confused, because of the curious example in p.61 and the FAQ. We were some players, in France, heavily waiting for this FAQ to clarify that example. We were kind of... deceived, I guess?
    ---

    The FAQ indicates that, even if the Orc does not have the active Shrouded Hacker in its ZoC/LoF and Hacking Area and is not attacked by the Shrouded, it can declares its ARO at Phase 2 of the Order Expenditure Sequence. But, the p.21 indicates that if the Orc does not declare his ARO at Phase 2, he loses the chance to do it at Phase 4. So, if the reactive player does not declare "my Orc Reset" at Phase 2, the Orc will not be able to declare Reset at Phase 4 if, at Phase 3, the Shrouder targets its with an hacking program.

    This means that, if my opponent is not careful enough when I activate any of my hackers and forgets to declare all the Resets he can have at Phase 2, I can hack them without opposition at Phase 3. I'm sure this is not the RAI way, but RAW, it seems to be.

    Here's my reasoning:
    OK, each time my opponent activates something, all my army has ARO, even if not in LoF/ZoC/Hacking Area/attacked...

    This if to prevent me to declare AROs that will never be valids, but focus on the ones that can be valid.

    Sorry but... what are "eligible Models or Markers"?
    Anyway, no problem here: if one of my Trooper doesn't have a valid ARO to react against the first Short Skill of my opponent, I may have one later.

    I understand "eligible Models or Markers" as "the ones who will have a valid ARO, just check them mentally".

    But, still on p.21, Order Expenditure Sequence (emphasis mine):
    Wait... does that mean that I MUST declare the ARO of ALL MY TROOPERS at Phase 2, even if I know they will NOT be valids? The example on p.61 implies that, and the FAQ corroborates this (emphasis mine):
    So... If I don't declare "Reset" as ARO in Phase 2, I will lost the chance to do it at Phase 4, and if the Shrouded does not attack my Orc, he will perform an Idle... but he has declared an ARO. This may be tricky but... what if:
    - the Orc is in the area of effect of a E/M Mine ;
    - the Shrouded activates and Idles ;
    - the Orc does not declare Reset at Phase 2 because he does not want to be hit by the E/M Mine (and the Orc cannot declare Dodge because ARO of hacking means Reset and not Dodge) ;
    - the Shrouded declares "Carbonite" on the Orc and then.... "hey, you didn't declare Reset at Phase 2 when you had to, so no, no Reset for you. And if you did declare Reset, you would have activated the E/M Mine. Sorry guy, that's RAW.".

    Did I fail to understand the AROs rules and this example on p.61?

    I'm pretty sure the RAI for AROs are these (bold texts added by me):
    So, the example on p.61 would become much clearer and more logical if the Orc does not declare Reset at Phase 2 (because of the requirements of valid AROs) and gets the chance to declare it at Phase 4 (if attacked by the Shrouded).

    I would greatly appreciate if an answer could come from CB staff, and if this could be then integrated in a FAQ.

    Thank you for reading.

    Regards,
     
  2. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    in case of hacking & mine you get a "fork" which will hit you one way or another, despite that you want or not want. cause mine can be avoided only by dodge while hacking only by reset. so one thing you can chose is which saves to roll - declare reset or not in step 2. assuming orc have just 12 WIP i prefer stand & tank hacking attacks strictly to BTS without ARO. cause E/M mine makes ORK a statue. Literally.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    As soon as you have the opportunity to declare an ARO, you *must* do so, unless you've a specific skill that allows otherwise. And the "rock/hard place" scenario here (eat an E/M Mine or a Hacking Attack) is a deliberate part of the game. Sometimes you get screwed, sometimes you don't.
     
  4. Arhnayel

    Arhnayel Member

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    The example on p.61 contradicts this. The Orc has no valid ARO at Phase 2:
    - the Shrouded is not in the LoF of the Orc ;
    - the Shrouded is not attacking the Orc ;
    - the Shrouded is not in the ZoC of the Orc ;
    - the Shrouded is not in the Hacking Area of the Orc (the Orc is not a Hacker, so he does not have any Hacking Area).
    But, you (and, I insist, the rules, example on p.61, and the FAQ) are telling me that the Orc MUST declare his ARO at Phase 2, and if he fails to do so, he won't be able to declare any ARO at Phase 4, when the Shrouded could declare "Carbornite" or "Oblivion".

    If this is the correct rule, then each time I activate ANY Trooper, my opponent MUST declare the AROs of ALL his Troopers at Phase 2, even if those Troopers have no LoF, are not being attacked etc. (and most of their AROs will be invalid, and become Idle). Two possibilites:
    a) my opponent declared all his AROs. I now move into LoF of a Trooper who declare "Idle" or "Reset", and this Trooper cannot shoot at me or change his ARO at Phase 4 ;
    b) my opponent forget to declare the ARO of a Trooper, thus losing it.

    Eether way, this renders Phase 4 totally impossible and useless in the rules.

    I hope my concern with the rules - and this particular example which totally contradict the ARO mechanism of Phase 4 - is clearer.

    Regards,
     
    #4 Arhnayel, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Note that in order to have failed to declare an ARO at first opportunity, your unit actually has to have been granted an ARO. The FAQ highlights that the Orc is allowed to declare an ARO that they don't have, but this is not the same thing as being forced to declare an ARO at that time.
     
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  6. Arhnayel

    Arhnayel Member

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    Then, my questions are:

    1. How can the Orc be allowed to declare an ARO it doesn't have? This does not make sense to me... Shouldn't it wait for the Shrouded to declare an attack against it in Phase 3 and then declare its ARO in Phase 4? I had expected this from the FAQ and it confuses me more... and I'm not the only one confused.

    2. When and how is a Trooper being granted an ARO? By reading the rules, it seems that AROs are granted whenever every Active Player Trooper activates/declares a Skill, and that the Reactive Player only checks LoF (Phases 2 and 4) to declare AROs. So what in the rules indicates a player which of his Troopers are really granted an ARO? Is it something the players have to figure out themselves?

    Sorry for being dumb and persistent, but I really need those clarifications.

    Regards,
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1. Basically talk is cheap. The requirements doesn't stop you saying you're going to do something, but they may prevent you from actually doing them which is why most of them are checked at step 6 just prior to making the actual rolls.
    Tactically, the Orcs should wait for the Shrouded to perform the attack, yes, but the rules don't prevent them from declaring early.

    2. Essentially whenever the unit is in a situation where it would have been allowed to perform a skill. This typically means; whenever the opponent activates something in their LOF, whenever the opponent activates something in their Zone of Control, whenever the opponent activates something in their hacking area if they have one, and whenever the opponent tries to perform a hacking attack on them.
    Probably a few more that I'm missing, but it's easier to check for it in game than while typing on a forum because your units will have a smaller repertoire of skills they can perform.

    If you declare something at step 4, but find there was a skill you could have performed given the board state at step 2, you'll lose the declaration and perform Idle instead.
     
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  8. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Because ARO requirements (beyond LoF) are only checked after all skills are Declared it is possible to Declare AROs when you think you might be eligible, or become eligible.

    In the ORC's case the player decided to Reset, believing that he might be hacked or that he might be in ZoC of the hacker, he could also have waited and Declared after the Second Skill.

    However, if upon measuring distances it was discovered that the ORC had been in the Hacker's ZoC all along then a Declaration at step 4 would have been illegal because the ORC had a legal ARO at step 2.
     
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  9. Arhnayel

    Arhnayel Member

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    Thank you both! Things are clearer now.

    Regards,
     
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