Greetings, A player recently asked me a question and I could not adequately answer it. I would like to have some clarification. Please read the post and the rules completely before answering and please supply your answer with actual rules citation. I do not want answers from what you "think" or what your gut assumption is. I know how everyone is playing, I'm not asking you to tell me how you play, I'm asking on how the rules are working as written and if we quite possibly played wrong. - - - - - The situation A Fusilier shoots at a Zhanshi. Fusilier rolls 11, 6, 3. (no critical hits) Zhanshi rolls 6. (no critical hits) With strict RAW, the Zhanshi would be taking 2 armor saves. Everyone I've ever played with as always played as a number cancelling "equal or lower" rather than "lower" and having the Zhanshi take only a single save here. - - - - - https://infinitythewiki.com/Rolls We have the following rules to follow... "When comparing, successes cancel enemy successes with a lower result—even if they are canceled, in turn, by higher enemy successes." And one of either of these 2 situation would happen... "Both pass. The Trooper with the higher successful roll cancels the enemy successes, wins the Face to Face Roll and achieves its goal." "One fails and the other passes. The Trooper that succeeded wins the Face to Face Roll and achieves its goal." - - - - - The Fusilier's 11 cancel's the Zhanshi's 6. The Zhanshi's 6 cancels the Fusilier's 3. So we're left with the following rolls... Fusilier with 11, 6. Zhanshi with nothing. - - - - - If we consider only the Fusilier as "One fails and the other passes", the situation ends here and the outcome stays the same. If we consider both troopers as "Both pass", the Fusilier being the "highest successful roll" will cancel the enemy's success, which we already have done anyway so the situation ends here and the outcome stay the same. - - - - - The Fusilier wins the FtF roll. The Zhanshi takes 2 armor saves because of the 2 success of the Fusilier. - - - - - Worth noting that there is the following rule as well... "Breaking Ties Face to Face Rolls can result in a tie. In the event of a tie (Criticals or not), both rolls cancel each other, no effects are applied and the Order is spent." If it refers to the end result of a FtF it would not be applicable here, but would be applicable if both player rolled a same high number. If it refers to individual dice, this would mean that any time you match a number with your opponent, "no effects are applied and the Order is spent" and would make it so FtF are really often just voided by simply having a tie on any of the dice. And also... P8 of the rulebook... "To resolve a Face to Face Roll, compare the two Troopers’ successful Rolls. Any success that is lower than the opponent’s is cancelled. If the highest successes are tied, all successes in the Face to Face Roll are cancelled." This shows that ties are only cared about if they are the highest rolls, which isn't the case in our scenario.
I support this post. I was sceptical at first, but after Danimoth came onto our discord and clearly laid out the facts, I think we should be seriously considering the alternative method of resolving dice outcomes in face to face rolls, which is validating hits a player has made, even if the hit was tied by their opponent, but so long as the first player in this situation actually won the overall face to face roll. This will lead to a slightly more difficult process when resolving face to face outcomes, and active turn shooters will score more hits in general, but it's what it is.
I beg to differ. In my opinion, the rules are written quite clear: 1. Any ties neutralize each other. 2. The highest ties neutralizes all other results. I think that there is no reason to think out something that is not in the rules.
I'm having de ja vu I've seen these arguments before, unfortunately the forums don't like to search for short words... Edit: very simple. The 6 that the Fusilier rolled is not higher than the 6 that the Zhanshi rolled and is thus not a successful face to face. Successful face to face are defined as being higher than the opponent. This rules passage implicit-explicitly tells you to compare each roll to your opponents rolls in order to see if it is a successful face to face or not: To do so, both players roll for their Troopers involved in the face-off and compare each result to the relevant Success Value, as they would in a Normal Roll. Failures are simply discarded but, unlike in a Normal Roll, each side's successes are compared to the opponent’s. When comparing, successes cancel enemy successes with a lower result—even if they are canceled, in turn, by higher enemy successes. It is important to note that rolls are not compared as a group as one of the most frequently asked newbie questions tends to be - basically: "doesn't a higher success value cancel the opponent's rolls and thus making my lowest value being lower than my opponent still succeed?" which we all have internalized isn't true as this would almost completely negate the value of AROs. P.s. Also, the interpretation in the OP sets up a special divergent handling of rolls depending on the values of the rolls involved which is extremely annoying. P.p.s. I'm getting really tired of arguments that essentially stem from "if I doubt the meaning of a word hard enough the rules using that word stops making sense"
Not as clearly as the big red text I put up there that asked for people to provide source for those "clearly written" passages.
I disagree, it clearly says that the rolls are done as they would a Normal Roll. So a Fusilier's 6, even if a Zhanshi rolled a 6 is a success in the passage of the rule. This part would answer the question, as each of them would be qualified for the "Tie Breaker" passage rather than counting the grouped roll for that part. I guess this would also make sense for the last bit of that rule that says "no effects are applied" as they are not applied for that particular dice, that particular roll. The line about the order being spent is superfluous.
Page 30-33 gives very detailed explanations of how to resolve face to face rolls. Mahtamori is very correct here. The fusiliers roll of 6 is not higher and so cannot go through regardless of any other successes. The examples on pages 30-33 display how successful hits are counted. edit: for complete clarification, you can always email the rules team.
Did anyone keep a copy of the N3 rules? Maybe it was more clear there. Since we all know how it works, including @Diphoration , but he is quite right that the N4 rules don't say so and RAW N4, equal rolls don't cancel other equal rolls, unless the overall F2F is a tie. I don't propose to start playing it that way, but it would be nice to see the rule fixed. Maybe in the living rulebook.
Page 30 of the N4 rule book states: “When two or more troopers act at the same time to try to thwart each other’s progress, Face to Face Rolls are used to determine which side acts faster and more effectively. To do so, both players roll for their Troopers involved in the face-off and compare each result to the relevant Success Value, as they would in a Normal Roll. Failures are simply discarded but, unlike in a Normal Roll, each side’s successes are compared to the opponent’s. When comparing, successes cancel enemy successes with a lower result — even if they are cancelled, in turn, by higher enemy successes.” It’s quite clear. The following diagrams on pages 31-33 display this quite well. edit: it also says on page 30, highlighted in a red box that; “Face to Face Rolls can result in a tie. In the event of a tie (Criticals or not), both rolls cancel each other, no effects are applied and the Order is spent.”
He quoted them without the page numbers. He also quoted the ruling on page 8. He then asked in bold red to supply answers to the question with rules citations. Which I did. The rules are very clear. There should be no issue. edit: please read what @Mahtamori wrote above. It’s very correct. If there are any rules issues after reading the N4 book and that you aren’t satisfied with the answers on here, please email the rules department.
New player: Hey, I have a question. You guys are all playing it this one way, but the rules seem to say to play it a different way. Can you help? Warcor: Good question! I know we're all playing it correctly, but I've carefully gone through the rules in detail, and I can't find support for it. I'll try to find a better answer for you! N: Thank you, that would help me understand the game better! [Later:] W: Ok, I've looked into it, and the answer is: "the rules are very clear." N: Um... how are they clear? W: I have no idea. Some guy on the internet said they were very clear. He didn't explain how. N: Ok... W: He seemed very certain, though. N: ... W: And he gave me these page numbers. N: ..those are just the pages of the rules I asked you about in the first place. W: Yes, but... now we know which pages they're on?
I do not believe that this refers to only the results of the entire die roll but can also apply to individual dice in the ftf roll (if that makes sense). the reason for that is because there are 3 things that this rule states: 1) both rolls cancel each other 2) no effects are applied 3) the order is spent. i argue that 1) and 2) are the same thing. if I hit you on a die roll of a '1', and you shoot back on a die roll of a '2' (both burst 1 in this case). then my die is canceled and has no effect applied anyways. And they can't be stating something different because if we both rolled a '2', it would not have done anything by stating no effects as at that point as all dice are canceled as per 1) combined with standard rules for canceling dice. The 2nd rule is superfluous, just the act of canceling out dice is enough to have or not have effects being applied. the reason I think 3) has no meaning is that the order is spent before resolution of the die rolls. It cannot be talking about losing another order. And it cannot be talking about how nothing was accomplished with that order, as the first short movement skill was still accomplished (I moved somewhere, I declared discover, w/e). So order is spent is also a superfluous statement that cannot actually refer to any in game change. So from what I can tell that really leaves this to just mean: 1) both rolls cancel each other now it is totally fair to see that because of the 2 points I argue are pointless, that it really does just apply to the entire roll. but I don't believe that has been the vast majority of the way people have played it up to that point and at this point seems far more fair to see that statement being more fluff than rules but does actually refer to a per die bases.
Since we're talking about ties, the part that actually matters is where the rules talk about resolving ties. In these rules, "roll" is referring to individual dice, not the "entire roll". The conclusion "[...] would make it so FtF are really often just voided by simply having a tie on any of the dice" is incorrect - no effects are applied for those individual rolls; other dice rolls that are uncanceled successes would still apply.
Okay. I’ll try to explain what I see when I read the book. The rules state how the dice are resolved clearly. If the fusilier rolls an 11, 6 and 3 to hit and the Zhanshi rolls a 6, then according to the rules as written the fusilier has scored 3 successes and the Zhanshi one. Since the Zhanshi’s 6 causes a tie with the fusiliers 6 and is higher than the 3, then both the 6 and 3 from the fusilier are no longer successes and only the 11 is. One armour save is required. The reason for this is because the rules state that successes cancel enemy successes of lower value. So the Zhanshi’s 6 cancels the 3. The fusilier’s 6 ties with the 6 from the Zhanshi and these dice cancel each other but doesn’t stop it then cancelling the 3.
I think this is the best we're going to manage with the current rules. The other arguments raised about the Fusilier's 6 not being a success are a valiant effort, but I don't think they work. The whole section pretty clearly uses "success" to mean a roll that's equal to or less than the success value. First we determine which dice are successes, then some successes are cancelled. So the Fusilier's 3 is a "cancelled success," not a failure. His 11 is an uncancelled success. We all know that equal successes cancel each other, hence the Fusilier's 6 is a cancelled success, but the problem is finding the basis for that in the rules. I think @kinginyellow is correct that the "Breaking ties" rule is intended to apply to individual dice, the problem is it's very much written as if it's describing the result of an overall roll. I doubt the new player will be satisfied with the answer, but he might have to live with it. Again, though, did anyone keep a copy of the N3 rules? They might have explained it better, and that would also explain why we're all so sure about it. In the upcoming living ruleset, a very easy fix would be this small edit: "When comparing, successes cancel enemy successes with an equal or lower result—even if they are canceled, in turn, by other enemy successes." Hopefully the living rulebook authors are following threads like this one.
I kept a copy of the N3 rules and they say exactly the same as in the N4 book. It’s a copy and paste except that on the following pages in the N4 book the rules are displayed by diagrams. If you’d like I can post a photograph of the page from the N3 book.
No need - if the rules wording is identical, then it won't provide the solution I'd hoped, but thanks for checking! It does suggest that @Mahtamori may be right that this was answered in N3 - back when we got definitive answers from @ijw . If we could find the thread, that would resolve the issue (and it could go in the "solved questions" list for when it comes up again).
No worries, I’ll try and find the thread too but it may take a while! Hopefully blind luck will lead me to this (by now) ancient thread… I will apologise here if I came across before as condescending or not actually displaying how the rules work according to what I read. I should have done so after giving references to where the rules were found. After reading the pages I mentioned in N4 (and the N3 book) it just seems clear to me how it works. This may be due however to clarifications I’ve read as you stated from previous users back in the day. I will try to find the thread but if anyone beats me to the punch then please do post a link/the rules clarification here!
I think that it is all here: https://infinitythewiki.com/Rolls (previous step: discard failures) First the yellow part. Discard any dice where the opponent rolled higher. Then the blue part. Discard any tied dice.
