1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Explode skill

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mogra, Sep 15, 2021.

  1. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2020
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    193
    Can a unit with Explode skill (kuang shi, gaki, jackbot) explode affecting an enemy camo marker without affecting nobody else?

    Thanks

    Edit, I see that in the English version of the rules the explosion is considered a Direct Template attack, so the answer to my previous question is No.
     
    #1 Mogra, Sep 15, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  2. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2019
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    114
    CAMOUFLAGED says You cannot declare Attacks against Camouflaged Markers.

    Combat Jump is not an attack and Combat Jump (Explosion) has the rule After performing the PH Roll and determining the Trooper's final location, the Trooper makes a Direct Template Attack, placing the center of the Circular Template (Blast Focus) over the center of their base.

    I think it could be argued that Combat Jump (Explosion) isn't a declared attack, but in practice, no one plays it that way.
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    I could be wrong because it comes up so rarely, but I think I've only ever seen it played that you can drop the exploding drop troop to hit a camo marker.

    Direct template attacks are allowed to hit camo markers, they just can't target them - if you get the template on the table some other way (like a chain rifle targeting a non-camo trooper), then if it also hits a camo token, you're happy. I think the camo rule just stops you from choosing the camo marker as the chain rifle's target, so you need that other target to be able to place the template.

    Combat Jump (Explosion) places the template without needing any target at all, so I've always thought you can indeed choose to place it to hit just a camo marker even if it doesn't hit any other troopers.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    No, unfortunately you need a main target
     
    Savnock likes this.
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    Source or reasoning for this?
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Because both with Explode and Combat Jump (Explosion) you make a Direct Template Attack, which because it is a Direct Template Attack needs a main target as part of the effects of that rule.
    Using underline emphasis

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Explode

    At the end of the Order in which the user entered Unconscious State, before making Guts Rolls, the Trooper makes a Direct Template Attack, placing the center of the Circular Template (Blast Focus) over the center of their base.

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Direct_Template_Weapons

    The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect and which Troopers and Game Elements (Markers, Deployable weapons or Equipment…) will be affected by the Attack, as this may influence their possible ARO, or second Short Skill of their Order.
     
    Mogra likes this.
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    There should also be an answer from IJW to dig up on the topic, but I'm not sure if that's N3 or N4 and I can't find it with a simple search. I do want to remember IJW answering this several times, however, so there is potential for answers on both sides of the release date.

    And for the people who really need to hear something that should be obvious: these were clarifications and not rulings, no rules were altered.

    Don't get me wrong, if I could "discover" using a Liu Xing's PH value, I'd be quite happy.
     
  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    @Mahtamori I want you to be right, but I'm not sure I'm convinced.

    The problem I'm having is that the rules don't define a "Direct Template Attack." Normally, when the way direct templates come up is when you make a BS Attack using a Direct Template Weapon. BS Attack is explicit that it must be declared against a target. The target can't be a camo marker.

    The Direct Template Weapons rule does, as you say, say "The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect and which Troopers and Game Elements (Markers, Deployable weapons or Equipment…) will be affected by the Attack, as this may influence their possible ARO, or second Short Skill of their Order." but I'm not sure that text applies here, for several reasons:
    - Combat Jump (Explosion) isn't a Direct Template Weapon
    - The player using Combat Jump (Explosion) doesn't declare an Attack
    - The rule which says that a template is cancelled if the main target isn't inside the template, is found in an example which specifically refers to a BS Attack being declared against the main target.

    To me it really reads like the need to have a Main Target is a Requirement in order to declare BS Attack. Combat Jump (Explosion) obviously has no such requirement - you can drop the Liu Xing wherever you like - so it looks like once you do, you put a template on the table and hit anything inside (unless you have an allied model or marker inside, in which case the attack would be cancelled).

    To an extent I'm playing devil's advocate here since I want you to be right, but it feels a little convoluted to tell an opponent at the table "your attack is cancelled because 'Direct Template Attack' actually means 'BS Attack with a Direct Template Weapon' even though your Liu Xing doesn't carry a Direct Template Weapon and you didn't declare the BS Attack skill. You needed to have a Main Target even though Combat Jump does require any target at all." I'm not sure I could sell that as a reason my Farzan gets to stay safe.
     
    Methuselah likes this.
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    Thinking about this more, here's a follow-up question.

    I declare Combat Jump with my Liu Xing and place it on the table. There are two enemy Models nearby (no camo markers). I'm hoping to hit both of them, but I don't know for sure whether either of them will be in range of the direct template. I can't check yet, because I don't place the template until after I've made my PH roll.

    At this point, do I have to declare which of the two Models is my Main Target? And if the one I choose turns out to be outside the template, is the template cancelled and doesn't hit the other Model?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    No no. Playing true Devil's Advocate would be pointing out that since we're not declaring an attack with a main target, the explosion resulting from Explode or Combat Jump (Explosion) can not actually affect any targets at all.

    My problem with taking the liberty of interpreting the lack of declaration as an allowance for declaring it targetless is that it disables several lines in Direct Template Attack without being explicit about it.

    You state the main target before placing the template on the table. As with everything regarding distances you have to make a judgement call which target is closest. Being omni-directional template with a very short range, judging which of two potential targets is closest to your model should not be hard given that you have plenty of reference trooper bases to work with and the template is 2,35" in radius.
    Unless your group has too many rules lawyers, you shouldn't even need to designate a main target, just check if there's any valid main targets.
     
  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
    If the target is out of range, the attack fails. Where is the problem?
     
    chromedog likes this.
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    You mean it disables several lines in Direct Template Weapon. There is no rule called Direct Template Attack. That's the problem I'm having - Combat Jump (Explosion) says that "the trooper makes a Direct Template Attack," which is an undefined term in the rules.

    You're reading "Direct Template Attack" as "Attack with a Direct Template Weapon." Then you're reading the Direct Template Weapon rules regarding the Main Target as applying even if the attack happens by way of a skill that doesn't require a Target. Those are both inferences that might be true, but I don't see anything in the rules to support those inferences over the alternative view that the Combat Jump (Explosion) skill directs us to place the template without the need for a target, and once the template is down, anything inside it is affected.

    Under this interpretation, I would indeed have to designate a main target, though. I'd have to say, "I'm targeting trooper A with my Combat Jump(Explosion)." Then if I pass the PH check, I place the template. If B is inside the template and A is outside, then attack fails and B doesn't get hit. Conversely, if I'd chosen B as the main target, the attack would fail if A was inside and B was outside.

    Sure, in practice it will rarely be hard to judge which of them is more likely to be inside. But I have my doubts that the rules intend the Liu Xing to have to choose a main target at all in this scenario. To me it seems more likely that the intent is "just place the troop, then the template hits anyone inside it."
     
    Methuselah likes this.
  14. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2020
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    193
    Let's see if CB clarifies, but I tend to agree with @Mahtamori , you have to design a main target that can't be in camouflage state.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    @QueensGambit you attack with a Direct Template Weapon only if you land. The act of using Combat Jump is not an attack. If the two were tied together, it'd have funky consequences for regular combat jump and it would create a face to face situation for where the Liu Xing Taryo lands (so if the Fusilier rolls better on their PH dodge roll, the Liu Xing doesn't land...)
    As far as I can tell, none of the modifiers to skills are voluntary, so using the explosion is not optional (just like it's impossible for a Shang-ji to make non-Shock shooting attacks)
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Doesn't apply. It's "allied (models or markers)"

    If you were right, camo tokens would be entirely immune to Explode, even if there were legal targets in the area, which isn't true.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Man, this was way more fun in N2 when a Cascuda could drop next to an enemy impersonator and kill them.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation