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Explode L1. To attack or not to attack

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ogid, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I've found a few threads about this mechanic after a question in the spanish forum
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/detonate-kuang-shi-vs-a-marker.25883/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/jumping-gakis-and-impersonation-markers.2033/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/explode-l1-question.28435/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/explode-vs-dodge.33537/

    This interaction is kind of special because Explode L1 (or the Kuang Shi control device) doesn't have the attack label, so this ability jumps over the safety rules like not being able to attack allies or marker states. This create a few unique interactions that would be nice if they get ruled officially, but if not let's at least try to get a few answers we can agree.

    How Explode L1 works seems kind of clear, the model would explode if he goes unconscious, that will happens in the phase 8 of the resolution phase and each enemy and ally catched by the template will have to roll for ARM
    We have this example but it feels wrong so not sure if it has to be considered (attack, declare aro in step 8...)
    But when we include the Detonate Kuang Shi the things get messy: Detonate Kuang Shi isn't an attack so in theory dodge shouldn't be an option but then we have this example:
    The enemies dodging the template mean that it is considered an attack. So, it's an attack or not?

    So which are the limits of this ability? I'll try to put all the relevant questions:

    Explode L1
    • Can explode L1 affect allies?
    • If you declared dodge during that order, does it let you dodge the template in the step 8 of the order?
    • What happens if explode L1 trigger catching only markers or impersonators?
    • Can you suicide (jumping) to explode next to marker/impersonators?
    Detonate Kuang Shi
    • Is detonate kuang shi an attack or not?
    • If it's not an attack, can the enemy troopers dodge it?
    • If it's an attack, then does it cancel if an allied trooper is inside the template?
    • What happens if detonate kuang shi is canceled by an HVT or if the above point is true? does the kuang shi still die?
    • Does this interact with CAMO/IMP as an explode L1 triggered in the phase 8?
     
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  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'll start.
    For me the explode L1 is ok without being an attack, you can try to "abuse" by suicing next to markers/imp but it can backfire hard and need you to get very close (straight to death in the ARM roll, no damage in ARM roll, marker dodges moves out of range, marker ARO unopossed and kill the model...). This is still very fishy so it maybe should get patched (it is abusing player knowledge after all).
    I think that Detonate Kuang Shi should be an attack for the sake of coherency, so it can be dodged, the markers couldn't be attacked and get canceled by allies, the kuang shi would die even if the attack is canceled
     
  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    From my understanding and from reading extensively through the multiple past threads on the skill, I think that...

    Explode L1 intention is for it to explode on friendly units. Which is why they did not attach Attack label on it.

    Detonate Kuang Shi is also not an attack, you may however still dodge it It as per the example. Examples actually counts as rules in Infinity.

    As for the timing, I think that detonate through unconscious doesn’t care about actions taken throughout the turn as they affect at the resolution of the order and you simply follow the resolution of the skill (place template, deal damage).

    As for Civilian rules explicit cancellation of the Explode skill (I think they made exception for Civilian so that the game can never accidentally end in automatic loss). The example clearly states that the model still dies at the end of the order, even if it cancels the Explode.

    Now, personally, I think Explode being able to affect friendly mode makes the skill unique and interesting. It creates scenarios that you can’t reproduce with other skills in the game and I believe that this is great for the game.
     
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  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Fair points, that’s probably the RAWest way to see it. It affect to anything the template touches (but civie/HVT), and can be dodged because example. +1 to that.

    What I think about this one is that it feels incomplete, like there are some rules that were never included, and I also don’t like how it deals with CAMO /IMP

    Any other way to affect CAMO/IMP needs first either find him (discover/intuitive attack) or being “lucky” and hit him while you were fighting other models (you place a template that hit a trooper plus a CAMO). But this rule let the trooper just kill himself to kill an enemy he is not even aware yet.


    So changes I’d like to see to make it less cheesy

    In the EXPLODE L1:
    • If the Exploding trooper (ET) is attacked (even if the attack doesn’t wound him) that order then it resolves normally (if it goes boom and catch IMP/CAMO, then it’s on the enemy)
    • If ET is not attacked that turn and die for any environmental cause (like a head-pavement impact); then if the only model(s) catched by the template is an enemy IMP/CAMO, the trooper must perform a free discover roll versus one of them, with an extra -6 if he hasn’t LoF with it at the start of the order.
    • If the free discover roll succeed, then the CAMO/IMP is affected by the template
    • If the free discover roll fails, then the automatic attack is considered null.
    With this rule it works more consistently with the rest of the game (well, it’s true that an IMP1 usually require 2 discover rolls, but I didn’t want to make this more complex). If the ET suicides and pass the free roll, then he clearly knew that something was going on. If he fails the roll, then he didn’t know about that camo, so it is handled accordingly by the game (negate explosion because illegal target)

    In the Kuang Shi control device:
    • Explode Kuang Shi is not an attack, but the automatic attack Explode L1 circular template placed may be dodged as one. Even if it can be dodged as an attack, this template still affects allied troopers.
    • If the only trooper(s) affected by a particular template is an IMP/CAMO marker, then that template’s automatic attack is considered Null.
    Something like that, to cover most problem and interactions. Because, it’s not like you are going to blow up your order-farm each game, but it’d be nice being to do it without triggering a 1 hour long rules discussion if some CAMO/IMP is caught. Another option would be defining within the rules what is an automatic attack and how it interact with enemy/allies, markers and impersonators and then say that Explode L1 trigger that.
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in N2 you could catch Civvies in an explosion and kill them accidentally. This could cost you the game, which isn't very fun.

    So in N3 Civvies were made immune to attacks to prevent accidental auto-loss. I personally prefer the N2 version, makes you pay much more attention to distances.
     
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  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Detonate Kuang Shi being able to affect marker states to be much of an issue.

    You are guarantee trading an entire order as well as a regular order generating trooper to put a single template down, and it is dodgeable. The effect is strong, but it comes with a much steeper price than an intuitive attack for example.

    I think this counterplay is a good mechanic.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Not to mention that it detonates all your Kuang Shi, so not the best idea if you're using them as an order farm!
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong. I don't think the mechanic is OP for being able to catch markers, just that is not coherent.

    It's like seeying Li the accountant walking casualy towards his office (Fiday assassin) and suddenly a kuang shi decided to jump next to him and break his own neck to explode and reveal that in reality he was an assassin. How on earth that kuang shi was so sure to do that without even detecting it.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kuang Shi can't self-detonate anymore, they removed that functionality and put it on a trigger on the Control Device instead. It's the morally void Celestial Guard who thinks it's a hilarious joke to pull on Bob from accounting...
     
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  10. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    Jump straight up 4", land and take a Pow 10, if it KOs you and you pass the second save (ie. don't go to Dead), Explode1 triggers.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't trust my dice to those rolls. They roll either only 3s or only 17s when I try, so I stopped :(
     
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  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    Oops, this is a very good point.

    It just reinforced my stance. Very fun trick, but very steep cost.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Could still be worth doing if you can put two Kuang Shi next to each of two Fiday/Speculo. Just make sure that you don't have all 8 Kuang Shi in the same order group if you're running, as Zewrath would say, meme levels of Kuang Shi - or stick two Kuang Shi for this purpose in a second group.
    Detonate is limited to Command Group.
     
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  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Well, if a celestial guard just blow up Kuang Shi for fun in a war zone, then he is a traitor. If he blow them up and catches camo/impersonators, then the only explanation is that he knew his position because he was working for the enemy all along, so he is a traitor.
    So... In this case he is obligated to commit Yujingpukku and must be removed from board? :P

    Jokes aside, then is this the way it works?
    • Explode L1 both for unncons or for Detonate Kuang Shi just damages all (ally, enemy, marker, impersonator...) unless civie/HVT nulls it.
    • Because example, if detonate Kuang Shi is used then the enemies can dodge the template as a DTW used by the celestial guard
     
  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    Correct
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Either way, dodge or take the hit and both levels of IMP is gone. Most efficient Discover ever -.-;;
     
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  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't like this mechanic but I'm glad it's clear how it works. Ty guys!
     
  18. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    A local player has been talking about adding empty combat groups in Army so that two command tokens can shift a Kuang Shi and the controller into the group for controlled detonations.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately empty goups don't exist. I do think shifting them out to group 2/3 is doable regardless, though
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That'll cost you 2 orders and 2 Command tokens if you do it on turn 3. Seems reasonable.