So the weird rules question i have for today is getting out of marker state before your second short skill of surprise shot so the enemy cannot declare delay. I know declaring discover for first short skill works, but is there other ways to voluntarily leave a marker state before your second short skill of shoot. From camoflauged state and impersonation state, they have a variety of cancellation clauses but owners choice isnt on that list. Nor is needing the corresponding skill. Specifically the ways to leave marker states are: Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). Following the previous, the Camouflaged trooper declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot. The Camouflaged trooper enters base to base contact with a model. The Camouflaged trooper is successfully Discovered. The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him... The Camouflaged trooper becomes Impetuous (due to the FrenzyCharacteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state In either case, the trooper's CH Level is downgraded to CH: Mimetism. ...
Palanka ruled (in the old forums): "Optional Skills and Equipment can be turned on/off at the beginning of any Order or ARO declaration, unless otherwise stated in the particular rules for the Skill or Equipment." Specifically related to turning off camo. So you can just say when spending the order that you're turning off camo, revealing the trooper, and prevent any "delay" declarations (beware Sixth Sense though).
Thats the thing, we have specific instances where you can be in a marker state and have no relevant skill, so why does turning off the skill reveal you? The instance is a khd/hd+. It has no skill and can be in the state so we know state is not connected to skill.
So you want to start the order as a marker, so that you are eligible to use surprise shot, but not act as a marker, so as to deny your opponent the ability to hold their reaction? That seems counter to the spirit of the game. It's not a "tactic" I can support.
Legal with discover, but i talked with my warcor and he said you can voluntarily lose your own state and I'm asking here how.
The quote that @Cartographer provided is about all we have. It's one of the fuzzy areas that's not well defined. Part of that not-well-definedness: it's not clear if voluntarily forgoing the marker state in this manner leaves you eligible for surprise shot or not.
Due to palanka responding that it is doable, your assessment seems very appropriate. I'll keep using the discover-shooting but can understand if others use it.
Sorry, one last thing. Do we have any other rule that says it might be doable besodes palanka? I'm not attempting to descredit him as a rules authority (sad he stopped, i miss having a rules authorities) but just wanted to be sure i have the whole story in mind before explaining it as needed to meta.
Activate TO marker staring an enemy sniper some distance away. I suspect my opponent might have an enemy TO in hidden deployment that can see me. I want my TO to activate and fight the enemy sniper and not be killed by the enemy TO marker uncontested. What i did was declare discover, he shot with his sniper, and the enemy hidden deploying TO marker stayed silent, so i shot the enemy sniper. My opponent (the player) was confused because he said i could drop the marker automatically. I said i couldnt, as none of the cancelation clauses says i can and because i know that skills are not required to be in a marker state, there isn't necessarily a correlation between those 2. So here is this post.
Sounds like youve got multiple things wrong. Not the least the fact that "hold" causes models to drop out of hidden deployment (not marker state) As to rukes you have palankas statement. And toadchilds explanation. Looking ti gain the advantages of camo while not suffering the limitations on it isnt on.
Oh, I'm aware of the interactions in the game. If you want i can explain what i did, why its legal and what i accomplished doing it. But the short version is my trick of discover - shoot worked. My opponent just claimed that i could have just dropped out of camo and gain all the benefits without need of discover and i was doubtful of that. Wih palanka's post, i can see what he meant tho. Thats vague enough i will still continue doing my trick but understand if others just drop out off marker state.
Ohhhh. I get what you're going for now. You're looking for an action that reveals you on your first short skill of an order. Your friend is suggesting that you just turn off your camo as part of your move/idle whatever in order to be revealed on your first short skill. Your concern is that if you do that, will you loose the benefits for surprise shot. Am I reading this right?
About 90% correct, but generally yea. He says i can drop it as part of activating/idle. I say i cant. So i asked rules forum. Their response is palanka says i can drop. I wanted to know if anyone knew any rulings besides that or if palankas it. Answer is palankas was it, but palanka was rules boss so their word goes.
As @daboarder pointed out, though, it's important to note that if the TO model wants to hold its reaction, it must explicitly say it is doing so and place a TO Camo marker on the table. It's still not as secure as what you're trying to achieve by revealing with the first order, but it will prevent you from being totally blindsided by a shot coming out of nowhere.
Oh, agreed, but if an enemy marker holds against the active marker. The active one cannot declare shoot against the holding one. This is a terrible situation to be in. If the active player declares discover against the enemy sniper, then no enemies can declare hold. So if the enemy hidden model wants to react, it will also have to reveal itself. And then the active model can shoot between both of them as surprise shots.
My point was only that by holding, the hidden deployment model has to put itself on the table, making its location known and giving you options. While I understand the attraction of the approach you want to take, it's also possible to use the fact that both models held their reaction to then move your sniper to a spot where it has LoF to only one of them. Neither will be able to discover or shoot, and on the next order you can isolate a single target.
Ahh, apologize. Did not realize you were suggestion what you were. My desired efficiency with orders in that game outwayed his chance of death. Or i was arrogant and thought if there was another TO model, i could kill both and didnt want to spend on order to have him show up as marker. Either way xD Thought you were saying a problem, rules wise, with my trick, and i was confused.
You can actually Discover + BS Attack and split the Burst. The only quirk here is that should you fail the Discover roll, you will miss the shots against the target of Discover.
Plus, Discover is a short movement option, so if you perform it from inside a smoke template against enemy markers, you declare Discover and ask for ARO. If none is given, Discover one marker and shoot the full Burst against an un-marker target. Since you have not attacked the marker, it cannot respond (and since it declared no ARO, it doesn't even matter if it has an MSV 2 or 3, it lost its ARO). For those thinking "but the special order Discover + shoot...", that is no special order, but a combo of the Discover short movement order and the Shoot short attack order.
