The engineering skill p95 specifies "Alternatively, by passing a normal WIP roll, a Trooper with Engineer may cancel all of their target's states that can be cancelled by this special skill (Unconscious, Immobilized A and B, Targeted, etc), removing the corresponding State Tokens. " So you can cancel unconscious the same time as other neg states. So far so clear. For Remote Presence p110: "Additionally, when using the Engineer (or other Special Skill or piece of Equipment that specifically says so) to repair a Trooper with G: Remote Presence, you may expend Command Tokens to reroll a failed WIP roll" So is canceling neg states a "repair" and therefore eligible for command token rerolls on Remote Presence? My reading says it is.
How does canceling unconscious without the healing suppose to work? The model still has wounds on it equaling their wounds stat, but unconscious won't retrigger as they won't lose their last wound in the future?
I just re-read the wording of Doctor and Engineer...twice...and now I have the same question, along with some confusion about why the wordings are so different. Does this give you a rempres model that is carrying around however many wounds, is in what amounts to NWI, and if it fails another save it goes to Unconscious 2 directly?
I don't think you're supposed to read them as two distinct things (ie. Cancel Unc is supposed to be part of repair 1 STR). But yes, reading it as either you cancel all states including Unc OR you add 1 Structure is way it tells you to do. The cool bit is that cancelling the Unconscious state doesn't risk doing 1 Structure damage (because there's no negative penalty specified for cancelling Unc: just that there is one). Unconscious triggers on LOSING a wound/str and having exactly 0 left. And the the cancellation clause is met: "A Trooper with the Doctor/Engineer Special Skill (or an equivalent Skill) may cancel the state by spending one Short Skill of an Order while in Silhouette contact with the affected Trooper, and passing a Normal WIP Roll (or the Roll specified by the Special Skill or Scenario)." So you'd be on 0 STR and not-Unconscious, any additional damage would trigger Remote Presence's 2nd Unc (if applicable) and any damage beyond that would trigger Dead. Rem Pres: "However, if the Trooper receives damage again and loses one further STR point, it does not enter Dead State as usual, but instead enters a second level of Unconscious State, signified by a second Unconscious Token (UNCONSCIOUS). Only if the user loses further STR points does it fall Dead and is removed from play. " Dead: "A Trooper in the Unconscious or Shasvastii-Embryo state loses one or more points from his Wounds/STR Attribute." Note you can't use this exploit unless you're B2B: Gizmokits have different wording. Edit: I think this is clearly unintended and it should not be this way. Rather I think it's clear that you're only supposed to cancel Unc by repairing 1 Structure (and consequently cancelling the state) not by repairing the State. The wording in Gizmokits supports this.
With added emphasis: Failing the Normal WIP Roll when trying to cancel other states than Unconscious has no negative consequence, and the Roll can be performed again in future Orders.
Yeah, you beat my edit: What negative consequence is specified for repairing the Unconscious state? Because it's clear that (as written) you're doing the alternative to trying to repair 1 STR, and the only negative is associated with trying to repair 1 STR. Proviso - I think this is evidence that the wording doesn't meet the intent, I think the intent is: Cancelling Unc cancels all other states as well. Cancelling Unc returns the target to 1 STR. Failing to cancel Unc does 1 STR damage. But I don't think that's what it actually says. My previous post was arguing the absurdity of too strenuous a distinction between the two "alternatives".
Seriously, this is bugging me. Doctor specifies that cancelling Unconscious with Doctor works by wound recovery: “By passing a Normal WIP Roll, the target’s Unconscious State is cancelled, by recovering 1 single point of their Wounds Attribute, unless a rule or Skill specifies otherwise.” Engineer does no such thing, and describes repair and the alternative of state cancellation in two separate bullets, and I don’t get why. It seriously feels like an error, unless models with Structure are really meant to have a different relationship between their level of damage and unconsciousness, although the last bullet about Engineer and Remote Presence does draw a connection...using the word “and.” Bullet one: Engineer allows recovery of 1 Structure (STR) point, by passing a Normal WIP Roll. Bullet four: Alternatively, by passing a Normal WIP Roll, a Trooper with Engineer may cancel all of their target’s States that can be canceled by this Special Skill (Unconscious, Immobilized-A and B, Targeted, etc.), removing the corresponding State Tokens. Last bullet: Engineer and Remote Presence: ► Regardless of which level of Unconscious State the Trooper is in, with a single WIP Roll, they recover lost STR until they have 1 point of STR, and cancel their Unconscious State. Of note, you can use Engineer to cancel states on any model, presuming the state in question is subject to cancellation by an Engineer. I don’t think this is the intent, but there’s a way to read that fourth Effects bullet that implies the Engineer can cancel Unconscious on a trooper with Wounds rather than Structure, even though the Engineer can’t cause the trooper to regain Wounds. I think the reference to Unconscious in bullet four is the main problem, but secondarily there’s nothing in the Cancellation bullets of Unconscious that says that the Doctor/Engineer heals/repairs 1W/S as part of the cancellation. There’s also nothing in the first three bullets of Engineer that says an unconscious Structure trooper becomes conscious on reaching Structure 1. This means that RAW, an engineer has to spend at least two orders to get an unconscious manned TAG back up: One to repair it, and one to cancel Unconscious, since the only part of the skill that links both is explicitly about RemPres troopers.
I'm looking at the N3 wording for Engineer (because the simplest explanation for why Engineer has a bullet point starting with the word "Alternately" is because they took the N3 wording and edited it), and I'm trying to figure out where the editing went wrong... (Convenient N3 version link: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Engineer ) Either they forgot to delete the word "Alternately" after adding Unconscious to the list of cancellable states, because enough people complained about having to make two rolls to repair everything. Or Unconscious got added to the list (to try it out during play testing?) and then not removed. Disclaimer: I think there's a two drink minimum for the suggestion that you can cancel Unconscious on a trooper with Wounds using Engineer, or that you can cancel Unconscious on a trooper with STR without changing its remaining STR.
I'm fairly sure that what they tried to do was to make cancelling Unconscious (and returning the target to 1 STR) also cancel all other negative states. They wanted this distinct from going from 1-2, or 2-3 STR (which doesn't cancel any states). It's missing a bullet point that explains what happens when you cancel Unconscious (ie "the target's Unconscious State is cancelled by recovering a single point of their [Structure] Attribute"). Also, related question: Do Gizmokits actually cancel Unconscious? It doesn't have this line (from Medkit): And the Cancellation clause of Unc doesn't mention being returned 1STR as a cancellation clause: Indeed it mentions needing an equivalent skill to either Dr or Eng. Gizmokits aren't a skill, so can't be an equivalent skill and they don't indicate that they cancel Unc in their rules.
So because they forgot to specifically, super-super explicitly state that returning Wounds/STR cancels Unconscious, you guys are trying to RAW a non-Unconscious state that doesn't get any STR/W back, and an STR-recovered state that's still Unconscious? That is ridiculous.
Oh, you're missing that none of us actually think that it was designed this way. It's just we're looking at what the rules actually say to identify where it appears that the intent and the RAW don't align.
Most words don’t have a singular meaning even by themself. If you put more than one word in a sentence it gets even more multilayered. You always have to interpret the meaning of a sentence. There is no such thing as one “RAW” and one “RAI”. Even if a sentence is written in an unclear way by itself, the meaning can be clear by looking at it systematically, together with other rules.
Oh I agree with the sentiment. But systematically, if Medkits are supposed to do to Unconscious Troopers with Wounds what Gizmokits are Supposed to do to Unconscious Troopers with Structure why are they phrased so differently? The obvious conclusion is that, systematically, they're not supposed to work the same way.
I don't think that conclusion is obvious. Rules writers are human, and we're dealing with an edition update that clearly used some older material as well. Glad you guys are sounding this out, but there is another sort who will use RAW problems to insist that the game must be played in whatever broken manner results from imperfections. Making it clear that these are probably errors and no sane person would play this way is a good idea.
Good point. But they work differently. A Medikit can only be used on an Unconscious model, while a Gizmokit can be used to repair one Structure point on models with multiple Structure points who still have some left. @Savnock: But that kind of gamers are not really susceptible to rational arguments anyway. You can turn nearly every wording on a rule if you want to, regardless how well it is written. A game as complex as Infinity can only be played pleasantly if both players want to play pleasant.
No, I am arguing that they have to be worded differently because the Gizmokit can be used on non-Unconscious models. Regarding cancelling the Unconscious State they work the same.
Sure they need some text that’s different, but the text on how they deal with Unconcious states should be the same if they both deal with Unconcious states the same way. All you’ve demonstrated is that Gizmokits function In distinctly different ways to Medkits. Assuming that they cancel Unconcious because Medkits do is illogical. Which is to say: you are arguing that Gizmokits don’t cancel Unconcious. If Gizmokits are supposed to cancel Unconcious they should say so.
@inane.imp Unconscious: Cancellation To cancel this state, Troopers possessing the Wound Attribute need a Doctor, while Troopers with the Structure (STR) Attribute need an Engineer. A Trooper with the Doctor/Engineer Special Skill (or an equivalent Skill) may cancel the state by spending one Short Skill of an Order while in Silhouette contact with the affected Trooper, and passing a Normal WIP Roll (or the Roll specified by the Special Skill or Scenario). Other Special Skills and pieces of Equipment allow the cancellation of the Unconscious state as indicated in their rules. Cancelling the Unconscious state automatically cancels the Prone state. Medikits have the following stated under their effects: - In both cases, by passing the PH Roll, the target's Unconscious State is cancelled, ... Gizmokits have the following stated under their effects: - In both cases, by passing the PH Roll, the target recovers a single point of their Structure Attribute. If the PH Roll is failed, the target loses 1 STR point instead of regaining it, entering Unconscious or Dead State, if applicable. RAW Gizmokits can't cancel Unconscious because they don't say so and without that they don't meet the cancellation condition for Unconscious State. But that's an easy one to agree on as an obvious oversight we can ask to get fixed and call it a day, no?
