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Engage Vs super climb

Discussion in 'Rules' started by M0Dark, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    What now happens if someone declares engage Vs a super climb model, who then walks up a wall?
    I assume the aro is an idle.
    E.g.
    Sphinx declares move, and walks past a fusilier
    Fusilier declares engage.
    Sphinx declares move and walks 2" up a wall.
     
  2. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    Or more importantly for the Sphinx,
    Sphinx within 2" of a Ninja (or other scary CC guy) and next to a 4" tall building, declares first short skill: BS attack with Twin Heavy Flamethrowers.
    Ninja declares ARO: Engage
    Sphinx declares 2nd short skill: Move - and walks up the building to so it's not possible to be in B2B with it without being on the wall.
     
  3. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    Oh, you mean The Non-Climb-Unit-Wall-Drag Shenanigan? Well, the only thing that caused more nerd rage in this forum is whether a player’s intention for their unit’s location should override its actual location.

    My friend @Andre82 rebooted the debate here (read on for further comments similar to your own) and constructive as ever, I wrote these helpful guidelines here for sticking models to walls :smile:

    As entertaining as another of those debates might've been however, I think this rule may have been changed in the latest FAQ v1.6 12 April 2019, p4 I say “may” because I'd thought CB’s previous position was exactly the opposite, and this seems a big change with little comment.

    Perhaps some other readers can provide more details and a better answer?
     
    #3 Wolf, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    If a trooper declares an Engage ARO, can they be placed “on a wall” if the active trooper ends their move near a wall? No.
    The FAQ covers the specific instance of a non-climbing model trying to stick a unit on the the wall such that its silhouette is touching the non climbing model.

    The FAQ has no bearing on a model that is on a wall due to climbing plus. As such the engaging model in your situation is still stuck to a wall.
    Note, Near is not "using climbing plus".
     
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Agree with this. They cover two different situations. Old FAQ covered what happens when something with climbing+ drags a mook up a wall. This one covers what happens when you are simply near one.

    Conclusion: you can place the engaging unit on the wall only if you climb up there yourself.
     
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  6. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    Thanks, that would be the way I'd have thought it should be.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Good old Fusilier Angus lifting an O-Yoroi above his head and pinning it to a wall.
     
    #7 Triumph, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  8. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    If the old FAQ is meant to be replaced by the new one. Then I'd apply the mid-air CC ruling.

    If you move and you are on a wall. The engaging trooper must be in CC with you. He's either on the wall in base contact or mid-air in base contact. He can't be on the wall. So mid-air it is and he falls down.

    But if you only moved 1" up a wall, then the enemy can stay on the ground, in SIL contact. And that is where you'd place him, not in the air, not on the wall.
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Unlike jumping, which the aerial combat one covered, a model can sit on a spot on the wall for as long as it likes. There's no automatic falling rule to be triggered.
     
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  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    yes he can, you misread the FAQ
     
  11. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Near is, sadly, not the most accurate word they could have use. So, a model using climbing plus end his movement on the top's roof. He will be near to a wall, but as he is using Climbing +, could he place the miniature? Is this the reasoning? Really?

    I could admit "near" is not in the wall, so unless you have climbing plus and you end your movement in the wall, or you declared climbing and end the movement too in the wall, is no way to place a miniature enganging in the wall. But probably the intention of the FAQ is not allow this in any way.
     
  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    They chose near because this addresses a previously discussed situation where a model on horizontal flat ground sticks a model on a wall such that their sillies touch thereby satisfying base to base for engage
     
    #12 daboarder, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I believe there is an old forum answer (and I mean OLD) that said the Engage simply fails if the model can't Climb (TAG, Motorcycle...). If you're Engaging something that can Climb+ or something using Entire Order Climb, then I don't know... maybe you deserve being stuck on the wall?
     
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  14. Phlyk

    Phlyk Well-Known Member
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    The real question is, if you are in a short enough building with a roof, can you stick an engaging model upside down on the ceiling instead?
    Touching.png

    Are the models in 'Base to Base': Yes.
    Is the engaging model "on a wall": No.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Pick the answer you like the most:

    1. No, models in Infinity can only Climb on vertical surfaces, ceilings are off limit for all models.
    2. No, ceilings are effectively walls in Infinity, the FAQ explicitly forbids this placement.
     
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  16. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Before you ask this question, please provide documented evidence that you have played a game where both players deployed models upside down on ceilings. :)

    Note that doing so violates the principle that models conduct their movement with their bases fully supported by terrain when not climbing.
     
  17. Phlyk

    Phlyk Well-Known Member
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    I hadn't considered option 3 actually! There is nothing to say that troops can't be placed or be moved upside down on ceilings and doing so meets all the movement restrictions I've found on the wiki.

    3. Yes, and the engaging model isn't considered climbing because it is on a horizontal surface with its base fully in contact.

    The rule is:
    • The user's base must be fully in contact with the surface over which he is moving.
    Of course then it maybe falls foul of the word 'over' but exactly the same wording is used for climbing vertical walls and in that circumstance you are clearly no more 'over' the surface. I guess 'along' would be a better description.


    To be clear, this was initially meant to be a joke post, but I'm starting to think I'm onto something. Deploying Climbing Plus troops upside down (under bridges etc.) can definitely have benefits, so it would be good to know for certain!
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I will not mince words, the stupidity of seriously arguing that an upside-down surface to be a normal horizontal playing surface is going to immediately end any game I am playing or judging. This is so far outside the realm of what's reasonable that it should not have to be defined in the rules.

    I am fully willing to accept that upside-down surfaces should count as vertical surface, but that's it.
     
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  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    If the model can stand upside down on with its base on a flat surface without any assist from magnets or bluetac or any other outside support keeping it in place beyond gravity.

    Then by all means place the model in the ceiling.

    All the above been said if you want to house rule it go ahead, ceilings are mentioned in the fluff, but not in the actual rules.
     
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  20. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Right. Please go look at the other threads for the last time someone asked about deploying models upside down, and the various rules faults which occur.

    And while you're doing this, consider that you're arguing over word choices made by the same authors who wrote the ammunition rules (see the Total Immunity discussion thread).

    While you're at it, look for the instructions in the rules which tell you to deploy your models right side up. Just because that violates several assumptions the game makes...