Hi everyone We french found what we think is a gap, or a void in the ruling about Engage and the reaction to CC attack. First of all : extract from the rules : CC ATTACK SHORT SKILL/ARO Attack REQUIREMENTS The user must be in base to base contact with an enemy. and that is all, no mention of engage or anything. so technically it shouldn't be possible to CC attack if you are engaged by someone out of CC. ENGAGE ARO Movement. REQUIREMENTS In order to declare Engage as an ARO, the user must have an active enemy declare or perform an Order within his LoF and a 2-inch radius around him. EFFECTS This ARO allows the user to move into base to base contact with an enemy activated by an Order within his LoF and inside a 2-inch radius. You do not have to determine a specific route to follow when declaring Engage. The user must pass a Normal or Face to Face PH Roll in order to successfully Engage. If the Roll is successful, then the user Dodges all Attacks against him and moves into base to base contact with his target at the final location previously declared. However, when entering base to base contact, the active trooper decides where around its base to place the reactive trooper. If the user was inside the Area of Effect of a Deployable Weapon, then successfully Engaging his enemy does not activate or set off that Deployable Weapon. If the user fails his Roll, then he receives all successful Attacks against him and does not move into CC. If the target of Engage declares an Attack of any kind, including a CC Attack, against the user, and wins the Face to Face Roll, then the user receives all pertinent impacts and makes his ARM/BTS Rolls without moving. Failing the Engage Roll also sets off enemy Deployable Weapons if the user is in their Area of Effect, forcing him to make all pertinent ARM/BTS Rolls without moving. You cannot declare Engage if the reactive trooper would be incapable of reaching his target even if it is closer than 2 inches (for example, if there is a wall or an insurmountable chasm in the way). Engage movement must follow the General Movement rules of the Move Common Skill. Any rules, Traits, Special Skills, etc. that would apply a MOD to a Dodge attempt also apply to this Common Skill. As i read it, there is no rule stating that the trooper count as having moved as soon as the aro engage is mesured valid. The trooper need to have successful engage to be in close combat IF HE WASN'T ALREADY. I saw no rules preventing to declare an engage while in close combat. It can allow you not to die if you PH is higher than your CC or if you don't want to kill the engaged model but also do not want it to get away from CC. That is when engage and CC can, while respecting the rules for CC, interact. The problem come from : Visualizing an Engage Engage is conceived as a movement of opportunity when an enemy passes by a reactive trooper. By passing his Roll, the reactive trooper moves into base to base contact to force a Close Combat situation in subsequent Orders, or simply to engage the enemy in CC to limit his options. If the user fails his Roll, he does not get to move or Dodge any incoming Attacks. If the target of Engage declared a CC Attackagainst the user and wins the Face to Face Roll, this represents how the user tried to approach his foe, received a hit and backtracked to his original position. This seems to allow, for the majority of the community, against every other rules to declare a CC attack against a trooper not engaged in CC with you. Or as i read it it could apply to the close combat situation : you are in base to base, you try to run away as your first movement, he tries to follow you with an Engage. As you second skill you say : NO! by smashing your sword on his face. If you win, he indeed backtrack to the original position. Engage example In his Reactive Turn, the vicious Dāturazi Jedak is the target of a BS Attack at the hands of the intrepid Fusilier Angus. Since Angus seems to be close enough, Jedak declares Engage as his ARO in order to enter Close Combat. The Combined Army player measures the distance and confirms that the enemy Fusilier is less than 2 inches away, so the Engage attempt is legal. Once this is confirmed, Angus declares the second Short Skill of his Order: Move into a Partial Cover. A Face to Face Roll takes place between the BS Attribute of the Fusilier in Active Turn and the Dāturazi's PH. Today happens to be Jedak' lucky day, so he wins the Face to Face Roll, moving his 2 inches and evading the BS Attack. The Dāturazi enters base to base contact with poor old Angus. Now, Angus' player, as Active Player, gets to decide where on the Fusilier's base to place Jedak's model. She places it so that, in the almost certain eventuality that Angus should be struck down by a CC Attack, Jedak would be left standing within LoF of several PanOceanian soldiers. Had it not been his lucky day, Jedak would have lost the Face to Face Roll. In that case, since he failed to evade the BS Attack, he would have made an ARM Roll. Additionally, his movement into base to base contact with Fusilier Angus wouldn't take place. This example while following the previous statement doesn't at all illustrate if you can or not CC attack against an opponent who declares an engage while not being yet in CC. My opinion is meaningless, i'm not asking someone to rules as i like, i want clear rules. If it is possible : mention it in CC attack requirements. But if it is possible, could you not be supposed to use CC special skills both ways. The martial arts coming from the engaging model should be usable to apply a -3 to the opponent if there is a face to face ( it isn't unthinkable for a martialy trained trooper to have higher chance to succeed in an engage. It of course make melee specialists nearly impossible to engage even by other specialist. I would like a clarifications on these rules.
Engage is not on the list of skills available to a model in the Engaged state. You could also instead declare Dodge without movement, that way you don't separate if you don't want to. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engaged For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset.- You are able to CC Attack the Engaging model before they are in CC because Engage states the target can. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engage If the target of Engage declares an Attack of any kind, including a CC Attack, against the user, and wins the Face to Face Roll, then the user receives all pertinent impacts and makes his ARM/BTS Rolls without moving.- For the Martial Arts argument, please see the recent two or three threads on the topic. I, personally, don't think it's worth arguing ad nausea every time it is brought up - it truly is a frequently asked question.
I'm not really sure what your question is, but: Is not allowed because Engaged state has a specific list of which Skills you're allowed to declare while Engaged: Troopers in Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat (CC). For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset.
Ok then no CC special skills to answer a CC attack while engaging? (dumb in real life but rules are rules) and i'll check the other thread. If it is a redundant question, will they FAQ it ? Is my point on adding the Engage exception in th CC attack requirements a bad idea ? for rules clarity.
I'm not sure your question is redundant, it's a bit hard to find your question(s), really. With regards to CC Special Skills, please do look the other threads up. There's been disagreements and we can only hope that CB does address them.
You can use i-kohl to penalise your enemy when engaging (or dodging in CC) as it has an additional clause allowing you to do so. Other CC Skills do not have this clause.
Are you asking about whether or not Martial Arts can be used when declaring Engage? Is that the question?
Soooo, you can't Berzerk/MA an Engaging troop? That certainly seems to be what the rules say, but given that CC Attack vs Engage is an odd exception I've certainly always played that it applies.
Yes and more extended, is the target, using a CC attack in order to have a FtF, is able to use any CC special skill too. Because if one can, it seems weird to say no to the other. Of course, you wouldn't have the bonus MODs but you could still apply the negative MODs to your target.
No. You can't use CC skills when you declare Engage. I don't know whether you can use CC skills vs a troop who declared Engage. See my question above. If you can use the skill you would apply both positive and negative MODs.
No because positive MODs only apply to your CC while using CC skills. The negative ones, though, applies to the attribute your opponent is using.
Engaging in ARO, as explained in the example and "Visualizing an Engage", mean you reach base to base. If your engage is a sucess, you stay there. If it's a failure, you go back to your original position. Because you reach base to base with your ARO engage, your oponent is allowed to hit you and apply the relevant skills (MA, Ikhol...), reducing your PH and/or increasing is CC/burst Because engage is a movement, you cannot use CC attack skils like MA. I-khol work because it's specifically written in I-khol description that it work with engage despite being a CC-attack skill (more discussion here : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/martial-arts-i-khol-and-shooting-haplass-targets.1762/ )
You can't use the skill under any condition that distinction is relevant The example only has you reaching Base to Base during Effects part of the order after rolls have been made. While I agree with your conclusion (MA should apply to attacks vs Engage) on general principal, I don't think the example supports it. The same is true of 'Visualizing an Engage' it discusses moving into B2B as a result of passing your roll (ie during Effects, after MODs have been determined and dice rolled during Resolution). I absolutely don't think this is the intent: I think the intent is clearly that you get to MA an Engaging fighter. But I don't actually think the rules say that. * Superceded by subsequent FAQ (I think....?).
This come from "Visualing an engage" : If the target of Engage declared a CC Attack against the user and wins the Face to Face Roll, this represents how the user tried to approach his foe, received a hit and backtracked to his original position. To me, it shows that you come close enough to receive a CC attack when using engaging (so base to base) even if you fail it Engage ARO allows the active trooper to CC attack even if the troopers are not base to base before the resolution phase + CC attack are only possible if Base to Base = Engage create a temporary set of base to base between its declaration and the resolution phase => allow the active trooper to use MA and others
Or you can read it as 'Engage is a specific exception to the normal CC attack rules to meet the intent described in visualising an engage but a B2B situation doesn't actually result'. Personally I like your explanation. But it's drawing a reasonably long bow, and the alternative explanation is plausible (it wouldn't be the first time). 'An Engaging trooper counts as being B2B with their target for the purpose of subsequent CC Attacks' is certainly how I play it. The only reason I raised it in the first place was because that's what @colbrook seemed to be saying. Which meant that it was more than academic. But, increasingly, I think Infinity has passed the point where 'that's just the way it's played' is an acceptable answer to the community: the recent clarification of Proxies in-line with community standards is, arguably, a sign of CB realising this.
that is technically not true. In MA, the requirement is : Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill. It doesn't needs you to declare a CC attack. What is clear is that the +3, +Dom and +B only apply to your CC attack, but the rest is just for the face to face : Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements: Attack MOD: A MOD to the CC Attribute of the user when making a CC Attack. Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll. Damage MOD: A MOD to the PH Attribute of the user to determine the Damage of a successful CC Attack. Burst MOD: A MOD to the B value of the user's CC Weapon (Knife, CC Weapon, Pistol...) when making a CC Attack. Type of Damage: Special effects applied to the Damage done in CC by the user. Special: General special effects the user can apply. I-Kohl is great because it focus on the opponent MOD (which is for me the only one applyable in your example). But the problem I was trying to enlighten is that technically you are not YET in base to base, so any CC special skills becomes useless (and that's super weird i agree ;) ). That is why i was saying that allowing a CC attack against an engaging model created a sort of vacuum/ void in the rules. PS: proteion is different because it is considered a CC attack, so not usable.
` CC special skill are related to CC attack unless specified otherwise, like I-Khol. All examples in the wiki shows it and while CC special skill is not defined in the rules, CC is clearly defined as related to an attack ` I already gave my opinion of this above, no point in re-write it : It is clearly stated that engage ARO allow the active trooper to use CC attack, as CC attack and MA have the same requirement (so does protheion), there is no real discussion. The active trooper can use any CC special skill he wants to hit the engaging reactive trooper.
@Arkille1 yes MA requires you to declare a CC Attack. However, it's not as clear as it could be. Expanding Arkhos' logic for clarity: 1. MA is a CC Special Skill 2. CC is related to CC Attacks (This weapon can make CC Attacks.) 3. Therefore MA is only related to CC Attacks. I can't find any other link that does it. But it's also worth noting that 'it's just the way it's played'. It's probably worth looking at Dodge. Nothing in Dodge says that it is a CC special skill: rather, Engaged says that you can dodge while Engaged. There is no link between Dodge and Martial arts. The same is even more true of Engage: Engage is not even allowed to be conducted while Engaged, ie you can't fulfill the requirements of Martial Arts and Engage simultaneously. Engage is only weird for the target trooper in that it exceptionally gives them the ability to declare CC Attacks (which probably can benefit from Martial Arts, and are generally played as being able to). @Arkhos94 You're applying an explicit specific exception to the general case. I agree with it; but it's not the only way to interpret it. It's significantly more accurate to go 'well you can interpret the specific exception (CC Attacks) as a general exception (Skills that require B2B) because it feels right, but it's not necessarily more RAW than the alternative it's just more likely to be RAI and is the way the community as a whole plays it'. The reason it's important to make the distinction between 'this is actually the only option supported by the rules' and 'this is the option supported by the rules that the community plays' is because when an argument resurfaces it's far easier to convince people with the logic of 'this is the way it's played and it's supported by some arguable tenuous logic' than 'this is some tenuous logic, it's the only option'.
i think this is an interpretation of the rules. not the rules. Your point 1 is correct, it is written as such. Your point 2 is only partialy right. That is an interpretation! CC special skills can give bonus to CC attack specifically but not only : CC refers to the ability (number from 0 to 25) or to the situation of Close Combat. here the complete paste of the RAW rules : CC Special Skills are Specials Skills that can be used while engaged in Close Combat. All Skills included in the group of CC Special Skills share a few common traits: Their use is optional. They are only usable in Close Combat, so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them. CC Special Skills, as well as all MODs provided by them, work and are applied in both Active and Reactive Turns, unless otherwise specified. If a trooper has more than one CC Special Skill, he can use them all and combine their effects. For instance, a trooper with Berserk and Martial Arts can apply both and combine the MODs provided by the former with the MODs of one of the Levels of the latter. If a CC Special Skill is an exception to these rules, it is stated explicitly in its description. There is nothing here stating that it only works if you declare an attack. That is house-ruling and, from my point of view, the logic is debatable. As martial arts training could, in real life, help you dodge melee attacks by avoiding stupid movements. Keep in mind that i'm not posting any : " i think it should be play like this" here. I'm stating the raw words in the rules that we all share.
Martial arts gives bonuses to the CC attribute which is not used for dodge, reset, coup de gras or to the best of my knowledge any other skill allowed in the engaged state, so while it's technically not true to say it only works with CC attack, their isn't anything else that uses the CC attribute. Maybe there will be a special skill in the next book that lets you dodge with your CC attribute (wing chun?) but right now martial arts can only be used with a CC attack.
