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EM Grenade Launcher sucks and here is why

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Djevel, Feb 22, 2019.

  1. Djevel

    Djevel Member

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    Hi folks,

    this are my thoughts about the mechanic of a linkable EM Grenade Launcher.

    First of all I really don't like this rule. I like Infinity beceause it is challenging and has some claim. If I would like stupid rules like a linable EM GL with Fatality and X Visor in spec. fire I would rather play instead some gamble games.
    Beceause it is nothing more than a non risk high value gamble for the user. See if you try to kill an enemy TAG with a heavy weapon like a missile launcher you need need a) to take a risk and die in the f2f or you have to b) have a very good position to avoid a f2f. None of this counts if you use EM GL, you don't have to take any risk, beceause when you miss it is the only consequence that nothing happens. You don't have to get a good position, beceause if the target is in the -3 or better rangeband everything is fine.

    That is not my Infinity. For example a linked Druze can shoot at 24" anywhere on the table on a 9 thats 45% chance to hit. The enemy gets an -3 mod to dodge, his BTS (if he has one) is halfed, and if he fails his roll he is more or less out. All the things that take a high expenditure to kill (HI and TAG) you can one hit with this weapon, and all you have to do is to spend round about 5 Orders. I played against it and I played it and in both case it was not much fun, and a nobrainer.
    Overall actually all the good rules are combined on this weapon: X Visor (and for druze fatality) and this sucks. And to be honest a druze link is a very good unit, also if you don't have an EM GL.

    So what are my solutions?

    Solution 1: The easiest way would be to remove EM from all Grenade Launchers, and give them normal grenades. Do I have a Problem with EM Ammunition overall? No! Normal EM Grenades like you have on Domaru or Santiagos are fine. You can throw them linked in speculative fire and it is OK. Why? Beceause you have to take a risk, your range is limited, you have to move forward, you have to move through enemy lines. If you suceed it is fine!
    E Mitter or Blitzen: I think there is a reason why this weapon has only B1. Maybe beceause EM is some of the best ammunition types in the whole game? And you have to get a line of sight to use them. (B1 in f2f is a high risk)

    Solution 2: Change the Spec fire rule beceause it is a nobrainer at all. Oh you are in range behind walls only a small window at the other side of the house? Cool I can hit you without risk... boring or?
    A good and easy solution could be: Is there a roof over the target or the spec firing modell - you can't shoot in spec fire mode. Actually Spec fire is better than guided Missiles, ok Smart ML have the better ammunition, except you have an EM GL than it is overall better than Smart ML. It takes no risk and less expenditure and one failed BTS roll is enough to suceed.

    But we had a few threads about the spec fire rule, so overall I would prefer Solution 1


    What do you think? Am I totally wrong or does the game need such mechanics? And if you think the EM GL in a link is totally fine why not adding DA and EXP GL to the game, what could go wrong?
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Nah, until they get rid of Jammers I have no reason to care about EMGL.
     
  3. Djevel

    Djevel Member

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    Jammer has the same restriction like normal EM Grenades: short range, so you can counter it relatively easy. (But yes it is a strong piece of equittment) Only thing I don't like is that a jammer can target camo modells, not beceause I find it is OP but if it werent't possible rules would be more streamlined...
     
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  4. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    hmm...jammer do not require vision and can be used in aro.

    Are you sure about imbalanced e\m launcher? I had quite a lot of games with it, against it - usually it scared HI or TAG models, but then some smoke-cheap-chain rifle comes along and explains to e\m lgl handler all balance issues... and 5 orders to imm+isolte someone means less orders to do a mission ...
     
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  5. Djevel

    Djevel Member

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    The Problems I have with EM GL is that this ammunition type is effective against 98% of all modells in the whole game except you have the veteran rule (but when you have HI rule too like vet. spetznaz you are fucked too)
    It doesn't matter if you are a LI beceause if you are a target that is worth i will isolate you with this, and there is nothing you can do against it except for good rolling.

    Jammers are targetless and cheap but if you see the haqqislam guys it is easy to prevent them from using their jammer beceause of their extreme impetous rule it is easy to predict where they will move and to counter them.

    For example in most games it is easy to predict which trooper is you lt. If I had the first turn and EMGL you will begin your game in LoL and the only thing I had to do is to move in 24" - woah that needs so much skill - not!
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    What do you mean? Spec Fire had to be buffed to work with Link Teams in HSN3, because it was almost always garbage and a massive waste of orders and even with a link, B1 weaponry is very inefficient.

    If you want a real solution then remove the bloody X-visor from those who have it with a LGL, because I actually agree that one interaction is quite unfun, even if I don't find it to be particularly OP.
     
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  7. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Speculative fire with long range weapons and high CD or bonus it isn't unbalanced, only you will play the most random option in Game. Sometimes someone will win the match with this stragegy and others only will do nothing at all. When it works looks like it was the best and unbalanced option in Infinity, but when don't work looks like a "unefficient" option.

    I have always the sensation that my rivals always do a lot with speculative shoots and I do nothing. The other day I expend almost 8 orders to do nothing and a rival in one order isolate my Arjuna. Why? Because speculative game is only a matter or rolling dices. You only have to think and calculate if you are or not in the good range of your weapons and try. I really don't use oft this game tools. When someone play it against me if it works I say to me: "he was lucky, bad for me", if not I think: "he was unlucky, good for me". And nothing more. It is true that in some scenarios E/M ammunition, more if shooting with a Light Granade Lauch and others bonus, is extremely good, but it isn't always so good.

    Best regards
     
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  8. SpectralOwl

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    Spec Fire OP is tied to tables. Spec Fire can't hit fully sealed spaces, so putting in building interiors gives spaces that are well-defended from indirect fire in the same way that you'd put high cover in the centre of the table to stop Snipers from dominating the whole board.
     
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  9. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    This is not a rules issue. This is an issue with E/M across the entire game.

    You are also disingenuous with your "but muh jammers on haqq stuff easy to counter because one mandatory 4" move means they insta-die!". With all due respect, this strongly implies you lack the background from which to make judgements of this sort.

    YES, linked E/M x visor lgl is annoying and makes the game very un-interactive. NO it will not change as CB has shown over the years that such un-fun things (jammer + marat combo) are ay-okay by their standards.

    AS for advice? VS druze bayram security...go first.
     
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  10. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    The same if the rival is playing Emily... More in ¿Starco?
     
  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I find Emily less fun to confront than Druze as she can take care of the heavy stuff and of the Veteran 1W guys too who are immune to the E/M ammo. And she shoots better too.

    One thing I would change is more the fact that a LGL can fire at the same range as a rifle. I would change it to not being able to shoot longer than 32" or 24".
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just a random musing: dedicated range band for speculative fire, regardless of device used to shoot it similar to Suppression Fire (Say... 0-8 -6, 8-16 -9, 16+ n/a).
    Would probably also allow Heavy Grenade Launcher to get a decent +3 range band.

    Not sure if ultimately necessary, but just floating the idea out there for people who are dissatisfied with current Spec Fire.
     
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  13. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Lets just say, 'Emily hurts.'
     
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  14. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Just change the rules so that an x-visor does not work with speculative fire.
    Does not make any sense anyways:
    how should a visual improvement help with shooting at something that you cannot see at all?
     
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  15. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    The only reason why speculative fire is not game breaking is because the target numbers are low, as is the damage caused meaning that even normal light infantary needs 3-4 orders to get rid off - making it very innefficient.

    Both E/M and Linked launchers break those.

    Yes, it is a terribily uninteractive action, and it works *way* too consistently.
     
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  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Easy, don't add the positive bonus fo LGL or HGL to the speculative roll. In this way you could play "random" if you want, but the chance to "harm" something without an expensive waste or orders is real in most of the cases. It's seem fair to me. No risk no great rewards there.
     
  17. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    I miss old EM from second edition (no one called it N2).

    It got to turn off weapons and equipment. Loved that.
     
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  18. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Wow, everyone has way more luck with their E/M LGL than me. All I do is waste orders accomplishing nothing, which sure doesn’t feel efficient.
     
  19. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Problem is that with normal Grenades you are usually killing cheerleaders, and spending 3-4 orders to kill one of those is generally a waste.

    With E/M you can kill HI and TAGs. A single hit on one of those might be well worth the 3-4 orders it takes.
     
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  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah, but HI dodge well, and HI and TAGs tend to have pretty high BTS.

    Let’s say I’ve got a full 5-link of Druze and I’m spec-shooting a solitary Wu Ming (no sixth sense) within good range.

    27.3% to isolate/immobilize

    But maybe I’m in the 16”-24” range band, since X-Visor was mentioned.

    19.6% to isolate/immobilize

    And what if that Wu Ming is in a 4+ fireteam to get sixth sense?

    16.3% to isolate/immobilize

    Those are all low enough probability that you could easily spend half your order pool and achieve nothing.
     
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