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dual tag lists

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by dhellfox, May 10, 2020.

  1. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    so through other treads i heard there is valid dual tag lists for pan'O.
    can anyone pano veterans share their lists?
     
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I'm not a huge fan myself, but I've seen lists similar to the following used to good effect:

    PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]6 [​IMG]4
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    JOTUM MULTI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, D.E.P. / . (2 | 103)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    SERAPH Spitfire, Nanopulser + AUXBOT_3 / EXP CCW. (2 | 82)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    5 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    The key is to run two different TAGs with different roles.

    Squalo HGL + Tikbalang is another combo which I've seen used well.
     
  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    There's some pricing issues if you want a couple of midrange support choices to enable the TAGs.

    Fortunately the "cheap" PanO TAGs are good at very different things. Tik + Seraph (Spitfire) gives you two strikers with different threat vectors. Mimetic C+ HMG and Superjumping Spitfire/Nanopulser + HFT with (situational) CC option. The Seraph is surprisingly good against Camo Markers and Smoke (double Discover/Intuitive Attack) and ofc carries an emergency Specialist with the ability to disembark safely behind his S7. A CC20 DAM16 EXP CCW is perfect for missions that require Anti-Material.

    Backup options for TAGs are ubiquitous in Vanilla. With Regular Sensor Minelayers and Krakots being the standout. Techbee and Machinist are a given. Lt option is a bit tricky, triple Fusilier shellgames are the obvious solution, ZC Jammer Lt is probably too defensive and not quite ideal. Swapping one of the TAGs for a Squalo Lt is an option as well, but a risky one.

    My personal preference is running Joan V2 EXP CCW over the Seraph, since it opens up more Orders, Stealth and can get into places S7 doesn't fit. Table layouts are my main gripe about running two TAGs to begin with, it's sometimes just hard to hide a TAG from a Vet Kazak AP HMG or move it past the table without running into a chokepoint covered by Repeaters. On the right table in the right matchup (dense but not too dense terrain and normal levels of anti TAG countermeasures) dual TAGs are definitely a real option though.
     
  4. Domino25

    Domino25 Well-Known Member

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    DID ANYONE ELSE SEE AdmiralJCJF SLIDE IN A 2 AUXBOT SERAPH!!!!

    /swoon


    upload_2020-5-11_10-51-50.png

    I'd like to register a bullying complaint because he's taunting me about my dream coming true. Take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm still newish to the game.

    Short version: His cheating aside, I would run that list or something very similar. The choice of tags and mission affecting what I have left over to upgrade the Fugazis, Hacker or drop points on Joan v2 or pal bots.

    Long version: There are a couple things that I'd recommend for Dual tag lists but you have to compromise because the points aren't there for all of them.

    Joan LT is good because you basically get 2 extra orders out her coordinated order. I usually use it to either move both tags or put both into suppression. It makes a Limited insertion list that plays like a 14 order list. Note that the seraph can't participate till after it loses the aux bot *sadface*. She becomes the failure point of the list as she is an obvious lt, you have no CoC and even after eating Loss of LT and getting a new LT you have a lot of irregulars. She brings the Helot, Monstrucker, warcor and Tech bee, all of which are great for the list:
    • Helot with decoy can help bleed enemy orders without losing orders yourself, a weakness of the LI list is your soft cheerleaders and lack of ARO presence. I like Decoys because they can draw attacks that don't result in you losing orders.
    • Monstrucker has Climbing +, better WIP and drop bears compared to the machinist for less points
    • Warcor - cheap order, position to catch drop troopers in your back line but avoid long range aros.
    • Tech Bee - cheap order/specialist, gives +1 WIP to monstructer and to the Crab-bots who are pretty useful for getting objectives.
    A killer hacker is very valuable as otherwise repeaters can pin you down. I like the Santiago but the points are generally too tight. The alternative is Grenade launchers or other means of clearing out repeaters/hackers in hard to reach spots.

    MSV2 ARO - Markers and smoke are problems, in Suppressive Tags can't discover against that markerstate CC specialist and they can't stop that smoke throwing CC specialist, both of which kill your tag, or maybe they had a repeater to drop then engage it.

    Engineer (a must) and you probably want at least one pal bot for the engineer, note that when you deploy, every engineer/palbot screams "My tags deploy or operate near this guy" and you points/group will show a 2nd tag is your reserve. That reserve tag deployment is the safest one to start your alpha with and you do want engineer support near each tag.

    Things to worry about:
    • Repeaters/hackers
    • CC via smoke or marker state
    • Drop Troopers killing your cheerleaders while the Tags are mid field (order starvation in general)
    • Enemy Active turn killers (link teams and TO can outshoot a tag in active)

    The obvious that should probably doesn't need to be said:
    • You want to go first, and you want to kill their orders or their hard hitters. You are going to be weak in ARO, your tags are valuable and most lists will have a good tool against them on their active turn. Once you kill a few guys and go in suppression, things get better for you.
    • When in doubt, shoot with a tag. Try to get the better tag and range for the matchup, but sometimes enemy link teams and/or vis mods with Missiles etc can have better odds in the ftf. Tags rarely die in one hit, so sometimes you have to just shoot/repair till you overcome.
    • a corollary to the above point is that sometimes you eat a template, particularly after deployment. Think carefully before deploying anything right next to the tag, or on a building next to the tag because that may not be safe either.
    • It's often more efficient to park the tag by the objective and use that low WIP bot than to march a real specialist to it.
     
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  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Less risky now that the bolt gives you nice cheap CoC, making a beatstick tag LT more viable.

    ZC gives a solid KHD platform to work from and isn't too expensive to fit, Taking a single TAG without KHD support is a mistake, two without KHD support is just dumb.
     
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  6. Domino25

    Domino25 Well-Known Member

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    I both agree and disagree with you on that. What I was trying to convey earlier is that the two tag list is probably going to be missing something that's just "dumb" not to have. Yeah, someone with good repeater coverage can lock you down if you don't have a khd. A spec fire weapon is a poor stop-gap solutions but you have a lot of weaknesses to patch and not enough points to cover them. If you bring a ZC KHD you will be stretched not to have points for good defense against smoke/marker state CC, and/or Joan which I do think is a nice bag of goodies for a double tag list, or enough pal bot coverage etc. Most double tag lists are going to be unbalanced and lacking in one or more ways.

    Even a ZC KHD might not save you if you run against good repeater coverage and several enemy hackers. In some ways, the double tag list says "Tag lists have a weakness, which I choose to patch over with MOAR TAGS". The hope being that if TAG 1 gets locked down/killed by a weakness, Tag 2 can resolve that by the nature of being in a different spot or having different skills. The pair of tags you take are your primary tools that amplify or mitigate some weaknesses. I'd argue that some tag combinations mitigate hacking to the point that while dumb, it's perhaps the lesser dumb choice to cover another weakness rather than bring the KHD.


    P.S. I like your signature: "They'll never expect this" means "I want to try something stupid.", I would say both those statements kinda work for double tag lists.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Hard disagree on CoC.
    You're running two TAGs, points are tight. There's no room to compromise for a CoC. You're going down to a single, bigger, nastier TAG for that route - Jotum or Cutter.
    Squalo DZ/Turn 3 Lt is fine. If it doesn't feel comfortable and too insecure, drop the Squalo for Tik/Seraph and buy some more Orders and screening tools rather than wasting it on the Bolt with two TAGs.

    (Dual) TAGs are a matchup thing. You're not going to beat a Nomad list with 2 WIP15 Hackers at their own game. But you're beating everyone who isn't even trying by default, like Tohaa, Ariadna and anything that just brought a KHD or Linetrooper HD to unlock REMs. While I agree on the ZC KHD being a vital option for PanO Vanilla (it just does the same job better than the Hexa) it's mostly a combination of secondary gunner, Specialist and the ability to unlock REMs rather than actively using the KHD for being a KHD. You'll take your Surprise Redrum vs a Carbonite ARO given it is the best option, but you're simply not going to build any Hacking offense around a single ZC
     
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I think it's a glitch in the Seraph readout, rather than something I did.

    But this kind of thing feels a little more well-rounded to me, but I just don't think you can build 2-TAG PanOceania without some weaknesses.

    PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    SERAPH Spitfire, Nanopulser + AUXBOT_3 / EXP CCW. (2 | 82)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZULU-COBRA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    5.5 SWC | 298 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  9. SpectralOwl

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    This is what I'd bring. From my experience the Black Friar simply isn't optional when taking a Squalo; Myrmidons, Morlocks and any number of similar units will take it apart without some timely dice luck or a unit which can take them down through the smoke. The Uhlan can take care of itself fairly well in the reactive turn by hiding under marker, making it very difficult for enemy Camo or Smoke units, its most common threats up close, to Discover it without giving up their protection. Pathfinder and Fugazis are there for orders, relatively disposable AROs and Sensor sweeps since Oniwabans still exist. The Bolt is the only KHD cheap enough to fit in budget, and is a decent threat by himself especially with E/Maulers; these and the Friar's Drop Bears are the only options in the list that can hurt units under Eclipse Smoke. When mixed with the Firewall bonuses through the REMs' Repeaters and his fancy BTS 6 he might even actually repel a hacking attack every now and then. Machinist (in my case the NCA variant for Veteran, can't overstate how useful this is if the enemy is E/M happy with Emily or Kiranbots) for Essential TAG List Things, Tech-Bee for WIP buffs and playing the objective and a WarCor with SSL1 as a last-ditch point defense for the Squalo and Command Token-enabled order gimp.

    If I played this in Vanilla, meta depending, I might trade the Bolt for an Akal with a Combi Rifle. If there's next to no chance of running into AHDs that will possess your very important mechs, an unhackable AD troop can be a great tool for clearing out the active threats to your TAGs that your opponent will be hiding in the deepest hole in their DZ to keep them safe from your own active firepower. NCA has the Garuda for this, but Hacking can be a real problem for that unit.

    Dual TAG Theory
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    SQUALO (Armored Cav.) Lieutenant MULTI HMG / AP Heavy Pistol. (2 | 93)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    UHLAN HMG, Feuerbach / . (2 | 99)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BOLT (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    MACHINIST (NCA) (Bioimmunity, Veteran L1) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  10. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I find this kind of thing interesting. Perhaps I wouldn’t take it to a major tournament, but here is a list that has punched a four hacker Druze posse on the nose:

    Heavy PanO──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 UHLAN HMG, Feuerbach / . (2 | 99) [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10) 5.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    The Stingrays are superfun partymachines that got possessed, critted and abused but still carried the day. Except for the Uhlan, since it had been burned to death by my own Auxilia while possessed. However, that hardly matters when it had left a trail if dead all across the table!
     
  11. Rebel-187

    Rebel-187 Well-Known Member

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    How about this?

    It Burns!!!
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    TIKBALANG (Fireteam: Duo) HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    TIKBALANG (Fireteam: Duo) HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    SCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 2 Devabots Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7)
    BAGH-MARI (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    MACHINIST (SAA) (CH: Mimetism, Multiterrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  12. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    #12 dhellfox, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    N4 makes double TAGs fun.

    There are a lot of options, but things like this work now:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Well-Known Member

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    Basic framework for going overkill:

    ZQASMiB0YWdzICsgam9hbiBtb3JkgSwCAQgBgvQBAQACgvQBAQADhMYBCAAEhTUBAgAFg6cBAgAGMgEBAAciAQIACBQBBAACBwETAQEAAhMBAQADJgEBAAQmAQEABSEBAQAGAQEBAAcBAQEA

    Seraph, tik, joan and all the fun cheap generators. 20 orders total, 15 generators, 3,5/7 swc 192 pts for mission upgrades. Tones of pewpew to be done and a serious contestant for a good 8/7 split. Can be done in mo too with linkteam instead of joan but pricy spec. options might result in problems with missions

    Edit: this list might be very viable with 14pts or cheaper auxilia fos and some sort of tweak for a khd
     
  15. Dingobattler

    Dingobattler Member

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    I don't see many lists with the evo hacker to protect tags. People seem to opt for khd instead. Is there a reason for that?

    Our tags seem too vulnerable to a lot of other factions hackers, with their low WIP. Double interventor lists, and those are usually one uber khd that will just rock up and kill all hackers nearby.
     
  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Likely partly due to TAG Firewall being new, and partly due to the assumption that an EVO hacker is even easier to kill.
     
  17. SpectralOwl

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    Protecting a TAG with an EVO requires spending one of your Orders, and they aren't usually in extravagant supply in a TAG list. Using a KHD drains the enemy's orders if you pick your fights well, and gives you a Specialist that can hold its own in the midfield as a button pusher. It also has the benefit of working if you go second, albeit being a bit risky, whereas an EVO does nothing while your TAGs get bricked/isolated/stolen.
     
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  18. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking something like this. Probably quite fragile against hacking heavy opposition, but you're not taking double TAGs because you're afraid of the infowar:

    Skärmavbild 2020-11-02 kl. 10.34.20.png
     
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