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Downfall Character Major Beckmann

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Brokenwolf, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    So on a lark, I took a stab at stating one of the characters from the Infinity Novel Downfall based on the descriptions and her actions.

    Major Lisette Beckmann, Garkain Operative, Character

    SK

    Mov 4-4 CC 22 BS 13 PH 13 WIP 13 ARM 1 BTS 0 W 1 S 2 AVA 1

    Special Skills: Courage, Camouflage, Dogged, Hidden Deployment, Infiltration (+3), Immunity (Shock), Martial Arts L2, Mimetism (-6), Marksmanship, Specialist Operative, Stealth, Surprise Attack (-3), Terrain (Total), Veteran

    Weaponry | Equipment

    Multi Sniper Rifle, D-charges

    Melee Weapons

    Multi-pistol, E/M CC Weapon

    I based her on a mixture of an SAS, Spektr, and Bolt. She definitely would be in priced in the mid to high 40s. What do you guys think? Do you think I captured her correctly?
     
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  2. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt Well-Known Member

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    Frenzy cause you know that time with the car and the TAG and that incident in the shopping plaza.
     
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  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    See, I can count that as possibly lower WP. She doesn't do the extremely reckless things that Hawkins (who has Frenzy) does on the battlefield. She seems to generally keep it together while fighting. So maybe Willpower 12?

    Edit: Fixed language and added suggestion.
     
    #3 Brokenwolf, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  4. wafu_vasco

    wafu_vasco Well-Known Member

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    This was really interesting to read through, fantastic job! A fellow named Blake Evans did a profile for Beckmann on Facebook which I've copy and pasted below for interest:

    Veteran | NBW | NWI | Marksmanship | Mim-6 | Hidden Deployment | Specialist Operative | Minelayer | Forward Deployment +8 | Shock Immune | Courage | Counter Intelligence
    MOV 6-2 BS 14 CC 22 Phys 13 WIP 14 ARM 1 BTS 3 W 1
    MSR +1 DMG | Heavy Pistol | CCW
    Shock Mines

    My thoughts for what they are worth, I think the higher BS of 14 is worth considering as first and foremost she is a sniper. NWI also fits well, I think. Perhaps an alternative profile for swapping out the MULTI Sniper Rifle for a Combi Rifle with USL? As for other points to chat about, Frenzy was removed from Hawkins' profile. Hawkins should definitely be the superior of the two characters in CC as in the book, on the occasion they do fight he is able to overpower and subdue her. But Beckmann would, aside from the gargantuan suit of armour and big sword, probably be better at everything else!
     
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  5. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think a Heavy MULTI Pistol would be an option, as it's a bit of a signature for her, so let's go with MULTI Pistol (+1 Dam). I'm not sure where the E/M CC weapon comes from in the first profile, but think the D-Charges and pistol would probably be sufficient.

    Infiltration (+3) is interesting but probably overkill. While there is some precedent in Downfall, I'm not sure Pan Oceania needs Uxia MacNeill, as it starts to really distort faction flavour. Regular infiltration or Forward Deployment would be fine. CC Attack (-3) could reflect the distracting effect her appearance has on some characters... or maybe just blowing cigarette smoke at her enemies. I think her CC abilities could be powerful, but don't need to be insane. If she jumps out of camo she could d-charge a tag, but she shouldn't be going toe to toe with real CC specialists. Perhaps she can gamble by putting an opponent at -9, but still has a chance to heroically fumble her d-charge for dramatic effect.

    As I've already had some fun with the character I'll give my take:

    Major Lisette Beckmann, Garkain Operative, Character

    SK

    Mov 4-4 CC 18 BS 13 PH 11 WIP 13 ARM 1 BTS 0 W 1 S 2 AVA 1

    Special Skills: Courage, Camouflage, Dogged, Hidden Deployment, Forward Deployment (+8"), Immunity (Shock), Martial Arts L1, Mimetism (-6), Specialist Operative, Stealth, CC Attack (-3), Surprise Attack (-3), Terrain (Total), Frenzy

    Weaponry | Equipment

    Multi Sniper Rifle, D-charges

    Melee Weapons

    Multi-pistol (+1 DAM)
     
  6. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    BS 14 would be very high for an infantry sniper, and would put her a peg above other elite character snipers like Knauf or Le Muet. Given that she's going to have high visual mods and hidden deployment, giving her a bump of one point above a regular Hexa is already generous at BS 13.

    Even in Pan O, you don't really see BS 14 unless you have the advanced targeting systems of Heavy Infantry or a TAG. There are some outliers in Steel Phalanx, but it's really common for Mimetism(-6) snipers to be downgraded to BS 11 to stop them from locking the whole table down on their own! For this reason there's a pretty good case for making Lisette BS 12, unless you really want her to get expensive. Think about what happens if they can deploy behind a Saturation & Low Vis planter to see why.
     
  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I think based on the amount of infiltration she does in the novel, she definitely should have the full Infiltration rule. I gave her the +3 as I don't think is is as good as Uxia, but still really really good. The E/M CC weapon comes from when she gears up for a mission and states she prefers the Akalis weapon.

    I agree that BS 13 seems just about right in relation to her exploits.
     
  8. wafu_vasco

    wafu_vasco Well-Known Member

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    Very valid points on the BS considerations. I'm still sold on 14, but it's nothing more than personal opinion. Hawkins has BS 14 and could be summed up as a standard Knight Hospitaller who is gifted in CC and had extra training, hence the CC nerfs. However, he is not special when it comes to shooting. Narratively, Beckmann is a Garkhain operative - a specially trained cell of Strategic Security who specialise in battlefield operations. For me, that would put BS up from Hexa standard 12 to 13. Then there is that Beckmann is Garkhain's best shot, their best sniper, referenced a few times in the book, including right at the end where there is a reference to the Black Friars believing she assassinated a senator with a so called 'impossible shot' that Maya-conspiracists still debated years later. Narratively, that would deserve the BS 14 for me. Having a veteran sniper with nearly a decade's experience having a lower BS than a fresh out of training hospitaller wouldn't make sense to me, even taking special rules and abilities into consideration. BS is the only raw stat that the novel consistently shows Beckmann as being streets ahead of Hawkins. I am totally on side with the concerns that this could make for a very powerful on table presence and that is a valid concern - but ultimately, locking down an area of battlespace and denying it from lightly armoured targets such as infantry is the primary reason snipers exist in the first place. Anyway, just my opinion to throw into the mix, I'm certainly not saying it's any more valid than the ones above!
     
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Because Ariadna can have BS14 and PanO not ^^
     
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  10. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I think you make a good point at her being BS 14 with Markmanship. She definitely is written like she is one of the best snipers in the sphere. But her point cost would be in the Mid Fifties and she would be the most expensive single wound model in the game.
     
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  11. wafu_vasco

    wafu_vasco Well-Known Member

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    Is that with or without NWI? I'd also love to see any ideas on a mini for her. The best I've got is a standard Fusilier sniper without the beret badge to represent the opening few chapters.
     
  12. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think this is a situation where you contrast game design and unit balance with narrative hyperbola. You know, like comparing a Space Marine profile in 40k to a Space Marine in a black library short story. You also have to consider weapon load out and equipment when choosing base stats, so Hawkins at BS 14 is solidly good with a multi rifle... but he's not packing a Multi Sniper with range band buffs that cover the whole table and Mimetism (-6), if you pack super high BS and Marskmanship onto Beckman she effectively becomes BS 20 or 23, which would be a problem. She either becomes so expensive you can't take her, or gives Pan O a single model sniper that behaves better than most core-linked snipers like Kamau / Bolt etc.

    The most direct comparison would be Knauf - he's a Pan-O character sniper with his own plot armor from the Manga, and he's BS 13 with Mimetism (-3) and +1 Burst. Also he's linkable and a game-winning profile, so you shouldn't really try to make Beckmann better than him without expecting to affect vanilla and faction balance in a silly way.

    Perhaps we should give her religious troop as well as frenzy though, and a comedy romantic duo with Kyle.
     
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  13. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    For a miniature representing Lisette from the book, the fusilier sniper would work pretty well. For Lisette from my Durgama campaign narrative, she'd be bikini clad, carrying a Heavy MULTI Pistol and drinking a cocktail.

    Really though, it seems a shame for the first Garkhain operative to not show off a new Hexahedron unit. If CB ever produces one, it should be dressed with some shared elements to the existing Hexa sniper, but with no helmet. She'd have a ponytail and aviator shades, hold her multi sniper in the air and smoke a cigarette. Also, this is one miniature that needs gratuitous cheesecake fan service and max height combat heels. She doesn't want the boys in her army distracted by any other ladies on the table, does she?
     
    #13 YueFei23, Aug 26, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
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  14. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I really could argue that she should be a better shot than a Bolt Sniper. I can definitely see her as BS14 with marksmanship. But BS 14 is really, really expensive. It is balanced kinda by the fact she definitely does not have MSV. I would be strongly against her having Frenzy as she keeps her cool in combat regardless of how much she kills. I would model her outbursts as having low WIP. I would recommend following:

    Major Lisette Beckmann, Garkain Operative, Character

    SK

    Mov 4-4 CC 22 BS 14 PH 13 WIP 11 ARM 1 BTS 0 W 1 S 2 AVA 1

    Special Skills: Courage, Camouflage, Dogged, Hidden Deployment, Infiltration, Immunity (Shock), Martial Arts L2, Mimetism (-6), Marksmanship, Specialist Operative, Stealth, Surprise Attack (-3), Terrain (Total), Veteran

    Weaponry | Equipment

    Multi Sniper Rifle, D-charges

    Melee Weapons

    Multi-pistol (+1 Damage), E/M CC Weapon

    She still would be super expensive. But would be fun. Modelwise, I totally agree with all @YueFei23 stated. She definitely would be in a body suit with Aviator Glasses and her trademark cigarettes. The Hexa sniper would make a great base for a conversion: https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/hexas-multi-sniper

    The best sniper in the universe is Atalanta with BS15, Marksmanship, and MSV2. She is not as good, but still a ridiculuos shot. Knauf makes up for his lower BS by being able to fire faster. From the book, Beckmann takes her time to line up a shot.
     
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  15. wafu_vasco

    wafu_vasco Well-Known Member

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    Given that the best sniper on the market has BS15 and Beckmann's primary combat role is as a sniper - and an elite unit's best sniper at that - I'm still sold on BS14, but I do see the argument for 13 is still valid and makes a lot of sense. Taking the recommendations above, I had a crack at a mini preview on Hero Forge. HF is a bit more fantasy than scifi so the options are pretty limited - there were aviator shades but they didn't look so great, and there were only cigars and no cigarettes. However, here's something which isn't a million miles off the standard Hexa pose... anyhow, it's a free to create previews so by all means have a go and see what you think!

    Lisette MSR screenshot.png

    EDIT:

    I found some more options, so v2 below might be better:

    Lisette MSR screenshot (1).png
     
    #15 wafu_vasco, Aug 28, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Haha, I think you're disregarding that Mimetism (-6) is effectively +6 to BS for most face-to-face rolls. Given the wide range bands on a sniper rifle, Marksmanship then gives another +3, and you're effectively giving her BS 23 (disregarding crit mechanics). She should be better than a Bolt sniper working solo (and she already is without marksmanship), but she should not be better than a fully core-linked bolt sniper.
     
  17. SpectralOwl

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    I'm honestly not sure this would affect balance that much; Knauf is already the second best active sniper in the game alone, best when linked, and available to all Vanilla factions and many Mercs and Sectorials too. The only change that introducing a PanO-only character better than Knauf would make to internal or external balance would be that PanO players would always take the alternative, which wouldn't really add anything to the faction except killing some quality ARO pieces slightly faster- which PanO actually rather needs due to a massive order tax on objective play thanks to the lack of safe forward deployment options or reliable fast units.
     
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  18. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    She would not be. A fully core linked bolt sniper hits on BS 19 with burst 3; she hits on BS 17 with burst 2. She doesn't have MSV either (which is extremely important) so the common tool of smoke would be able to stop her cold. She would be an expensive (40s) model with arm 1. She is an huge toolkit, but would be fragile.

    Knauf and bolts could handle a wider range of targets with higher burst. And they are much much cheaper. She would probably not even be considered competitive for her price as she would have a lot added stuff. How many 40+ point single wound models do people use these days? But she could be fun.
     
  19. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yes, I'm aware that Mimetism does not *directly* add to your BS in face-to-face rolls, however by applying a negative mod to your opponent's shots back it boosts the face-to-face roll by about the same amount. So the bolt would be BS 19 with burst 3 linked, and Lisette would be BS 17 with an additional -6 on the target. Smoke is a defensive counter, sure, but you're going to have to choose between getting countered by smoke or white noise.
     
  20. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Smoke is much, more prevalent that white noise and I believe mechanically BS 13 with MSV 1 is stronger that BS 14 without (which why I suggested it). Mimetism and smoke counter her hard. And anything with MSV has a good chance of shooting her down. Her having mimetism -6 is very good, but Knauf can kill more in the active and she still dies in the reactive turn to a MSV HMG.
     
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