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Does Total Immunity prevent Protheion lifesteal?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Whilst Protheion is not an ammo type, it is an attack that forces a save - and Total Immunity enables the user to choose Arm or BTS to save with.

    Protheion vs a target with Wounds attribute specifically refers to failed BTS saves as the requirement for gaininh power up wounds. Does TI cancel/subvert this effect by rolling Arm saves? Does Protheion need to be updated to read "failed save" rather than "failed BTS save"?
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    As far as the first bullet point goes it only seems to work against Ammunition types, which Protheion isn't.
    A Total Immunity Trooper could still roll ARM vs a Protheion attack according to the second bullet point.

    In any case you could use Protheion when attacking Unconscious troops since Automatic Skills deactivate in that State.
     
  3. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    @ijw @HellLois ???
    IMHO:
    1) TI works against:
    "Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls ...",
    Protheion for sure such attack & Special rule
    2) Howether Protheion NOT use Special Ammunition. so nothing change to normal
    3) But TI user still could chose ARM or BTS to save against forced BTS roll
    4) despite the atribute TI user chose, it is still BTS roll save, so if it failed - Protheion works, allowing to get Power-up token.
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Total Immunity would allow the target to choose between ARM or BTS for their 'save'.

    By a very strict reading of (some of) the rules, choosing to make it an ARM Roll would stop both the attacker gaining a Wound and stop the target losing a Wound as they both trigger off failed BTS Rolls. But I suggest that it should work no matter which Attribute is chosen, as the Infinity rules frequently use ARM/BTS Roll as a blanket term, inferring that they are equivalent.
     
  5. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Immunity

    Game Example of Total Immunity. Special cases:
    A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack from the Forward Observer Special Skill cannot apply Total Immunity, as Forward Observer does not use Special Ammunition.

    Protheion does not use Special Ammunition either. So Total Immunity doesn't work. So no choosing ARM and BTS. So BTS save and all the consequences of Protheion.


    Or you need to rewrite the rules...
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Right. Note the title in what you quoted, specifically 'special cases'.

    Two special cases are listed - weapons with Adhesive ammo, and Forward Observer, as these are weapons that have the non-Lethal Trait but do not cause ARM/BTS Rolls.

    Those two specific cases are mentioned because they're not covered by the Effects bullets.

    Ignore, I misread the post!
     
    #6 ijw, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  7. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Yes.

    But it also mention "cannot apply Total Immunity... does not use Special Ammunition".

    It doesn't say anything "that have the non-Lethal Trait but do not cause ARM/BTS Rolls".

    This way by RAW everything works clearly.

    What you suggest is ignore "cannot apply Total Immunity" and all the rules of Protheion mentioning BTS saves.

    The only question is - is it intended or just a bad wording?
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Please re-read the bullet points for Total Immunity. That’s the context for the examples.

    Ignore, I misread the post!
     
    #8 ijw, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  9. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    What exactly you mean?

    As an example.

    Bioimunnity let you choose ARM or BTS only if you get hit by shock or viral.

    And then it says:

    Q: Against an AP+Shock shot, how does Bioimmunity work if you choose to make the Armor Roll with the BTS Attribute?
    A: The Shock Ammunition would treated like Normal Ammunition, but is combined with AP Ammunition so it is compulsory to make the Roll with the ARM Attribute, not with the BTS.

    So it doesn't let you choose any time you want.

    Protheion is normal ammunition (not a special ammunition anyway you read it) so what exactly you are trying to say here?
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Many apologies, I misread your post.

    However Total Immunity does have to be applied, because of:
    "When suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls [...]"

    Protheion is definitely an Attack that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls.

    Forward Observer has a reminder that it doesn't force ARM or BTS Rolls.

    I think the only practical difference between what we're saying is whether ARM could be substituted for BTS.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  11. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Yes.

    It's more of a special case here. Because Total Immunity would let ignore Protheion if saved by ARM.
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Total Immunity definitely lets you roll ARM against Protheion. My suggestion (again, it's a suggestion) is that we let Infinity's interchangeable use of ARM/BTS Roll apply to Protheion. That way, Total immunity works as expected and Protheion works as expected.
     
  13. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    I can't agree because we have an example on the very same page about FO and Special Ammunition.

    Also "When suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition." - is saying here that TI ignores Special Ammunition, not that TI always work when you suffer an attack.
     
    Tom McTrouble likes this.
  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I think this is the only sane route. Otherwise, using bioimmunity to save vs Shock on BTS would also make that ammo completely fizzle, since its rules reference ARM rolls, and we know from explicit game examples that that’s not how that works.
     
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  15. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Why? Bioimmunity just make shock normal ammo.
     
  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    But you can save with your BTS if you like. If you do...

    • Each ARM Roll failed against Normal (N) Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.

    So you are immune to the effects if you go too strictly simply by virtue of deciding to roll on BTS.
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Personally I read the interaction that you are still making the ARM roll (or BTS in the Prothein situation), but using your BTS (or ARM) value. It isn't exactly what the wording in the rules say, but it plays out fine and clear up silly loopholes like mentioned here.
     
    toadchild likes this.
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Because the two Effects work together:
    • When suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    So you've suffered an Attack (etc.) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, and are allowed to choose which to roll against.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I definitely agree. I was simply showing how reading it the other way leads to ridiculousness like that which I pointed out.
     
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  20. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, was only quoting you for conversation purposes. Not to call you out as we have the same opinion on it.
     
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