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Dodging Smoke (and mines) - improvement suggestion

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Rey, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    I don't know if this has been posted earlier.

    Suggestion:
    Troopers should be allowed to ARO Dodge or Reset when a visibility condition zone or a deployable weaopn/equipment appears in their LoF as part of the opponent's order expenditure.

    Troopers in reactive turn can dodge or reset if they gain lof to another model or marker activated by an order, but there is a flaw/oversight that prevents troopers from dodging/resetting when they see a marker appear from around the corner or a smoke/nimbus/white noise template that is being placed. This creates some really silly situations when a skilled fighter just stares at a goddamn cloud of smoke to get a -12 "surprise-shot-from-camo-in-cover-at-long-range-out-of-zero-vis (r)" next second.

    It is perfectly logical that when a trooper gains LoF to a visibility condition zone created as a result of another trooper's order said trooper will try to react somehow. It's obvious that something will happen and that smoke is there for a reason.
    Seeing smoke people will try to take cover, seeing that their visor shows nothing but static they will most definitely try to do something about it etc. They won't just stand there.

    Shooting through smoke, white noise or "mine in your face around the corner" combos can be really annoying not because they are so overpowered, but because they are among those really few situations in Infinity about which you can't do anything.

    Yes, such change would mess a bit with "templates and deployables are placed at the conclusion of the order" and with ARO declaration sequence, but this has to be addressed and fixed.

    P. S.: With all due respect to everyone who's OK with the rules as they are now (because you abuse smoke combos or for whatever reason) - please walk past this thread and don't try to convince me that rules are great in this regard. They're not. Period.
     
    TaHu likes this.
  2. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong that no action can be taken period. When that camo suprise shots you through smoke. Dodge. It's the same effect that you are looking for but with a ftf in the active turns favor (which it already was, so no surprise)

    The only penalty to dodge in that specific example was -3 due to surprise shot.

    The effect you are looking for would be detrimental to the game i feel as dodging 2-4 inches as a normal roll whenever you wish to set up really good mods for yourself is bad. This is because getting to closer for good range bands on reactive models would be practically impossible.
     
  3. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    Please read my post. That's the next order you are writing about.
    If your trooper dodges into cover when he sees my smoke, there's a chance that next order there will be noone to shoot at.

    As things are now - troopers stand and stupidly wait/ignore smoke because rules.
     
  4. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    All of this is rules, and they are unrealistic at times.

    And yes i was talking about the next order. You commented that it was bad gameplay wise due to a billion modifiers and there was nothing they could do. They can dodge against the intruder at a -3. The active player spent 2 orders performing this action and are using a 6th of their list.
     
    ChoTimberwolf and macfergusson like this.
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    For what it's worth, it's not a flaw or oversight but but a fundamental part of the game mechanics that you only get to react to the active trooper, or actions of theirs that directly impact you at that point.
     
  6. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    "Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" is not really a good stance to take. I'm not sure if you understand how forums work.

    You sound like someone who has been on the receiving end of Smoke+MSV2 and is still super salty about it. The fact that you can react at all to someone shooting you through smoke (and with no penalties if you Dodge!) is already a huge concession in favor of the target.
     
  7. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    The problem is, this mechanic restricts your options twice. First time when you cannot react to smoke, second time when mods are stacked so that you are forced to dodge if you don't have msv2+ or not in a fireteam.

    Something happens, you know exactly what this means but can't do anything because rules say you can't. There's no logic behind this.

    Idle/Move + Smoke or White noise cannot be reacted to even though the reactive trooper has LoF to this action. This means the mechanic is flawed.
     
  8. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    You are so wrong.
    Indeed, since I mostly play ASA, I've been on the receiving end, but I got tired of this and worked out approaches to beat opponents that abuse smoke and MSV 2+ combo. I am not writing this to make things easier for myself, I am already OK.

    What I am trying to say is that in Infinity players almost always have options. In this case they don't.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Because nothing has been done to them at this point.
     
  10. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    Nothing is done to a trooper that gains LoF to the model on it's second Move part of Move+Move.
    Same situation, different ruling.
     
  11. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The fact that you can't stop calling a legitimate tactic "abusing the rules" is pretty telling, dude. It's working as intended.

    Sometimes you get shot in the back. That's when you REALLY have no options. Smoke tricks are no longer a case where you have zero options.
     
  12. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    I do this for a reason. People who have that option really "abuse" it. This thing is a no-brain auto-include, which is bad. Lists are built around this ruling and that's abuse.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    'Abuse' infers that it's not an intentional part of the game.
     
  14. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    @ijw, macfergusson

    Let's please stop being 80 lvl psychologists trying to figure out my win-lose ratio and traumas regarding shooting through smoke.

    Nothing is done to a trooper that gains LoF to the model on it's second Move part of Move+Move.
    Same situation, different ruling.
     
  15. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    You don't gain LoF because there's Smoke or White Noise in the way. It's not the same situation. You're either being purposefully obtuse or you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the rule set.
     
    chromedog and T. Rex Pushups like this.
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You aren't required to like this interaction you describe in the OP, but this is guaranteed something they've discussed when writing the rules.
    I'm certainly not one to tell you to not discuss it, but maybe discuss it with slightly more open mind?
     
  17. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    It's not already in the way to prevent something. It GETS in the way at the conclusion of the order. And you don't get to react to the situation change.
    You literally see it, that's not hacking or something on the radio, or else, you see it, but you can't do anything. That is the only thing I am talking about.

    The "you're so butthurt because you get shot through smoke often" argument is invalid. I also mentioned mines from around the corner (though I'm ASA and I have infiltrating nagas with mines) and White noise - I am trying to offer an improvement that will make the game more logical and realistic. For those that don't "abuse" current rules such improvement won't change much, right?
     
    #17 Rey, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  18. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    While reacting to smoke is a long discussion. I think we can agree that ARO to mine camo marker would be good. What is the difference between moving camo marker and camo marker that appeared out of the corner?
     
  19. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Again, you might have better traction in discussing this situation if you stopped trying to pretend this is some flawed loophole in the rules. It's not "abusing" anything, it's fully intended and working exactly as the creators of the game want it to. You don't have some moral high ground to claim here.

    In second edition, you didn't get an ARO to a template being placed directly on top of you from outside of your sight. You didn't get an ARO to being shot in the face, but through smoke (unless you survived the normal rolls!). They have already made major changes to balance this point out. The fact that "Change Facing" exists as an ARO option at all is a concession to reactive turn balance.

    At some point you have to realize that the Active turn is intended to have some advantage. If they choose to spend multiple orders setting up a single shot, that is a LOT of resources dedicated to trying to stack a small modifier that might still get them killed anyways. This balance is in a pretty good place right now. Further dampening this effect is slowly going to erode Active turn even further.

    Additionally, for the Mine issue, you do get an ARO. For a trooper to be close enough to drop a mine that would hit you, they have to enter your zone of control which triggers a reaction. You may not like the options you GET from that ARO, but that's a separate question.
     
  20. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    Active turn has its advantages in maneuvering and firing full bursts against just dodging and firing reduced bursts.

    Not all factions get access to "shoot through smoke" combo, so how exactly does allowing to dodge smoke templates (that people also use to just block LoF) exactly erode active turn?
    If there are people out there that build their tactics solely around this ultimative ruling and such change will erode their active turn because their only viable tactic is ruined - sorry for them then.
    If CB intended this that way then OK, all clear.

    ARO to mine from ZoC - Change Facing is not a viable ARO in this case as it, while being the only option, doesn't help at all.

    Being able to take a chance at dodging when you see smoke or a mysterious camo marker" won't break the game. It's mostly situational, but when the situation takes place you have options.

    - does not mean that there's no more room for improvement.

    On a side note: I am surprised how 3 of 4 people to reply in this thread try to tell me everything is OK instead of offering alternatives of really discussing. What I get is "you're wrong" in various ways. I'm trying to point out an obvious exclusion, some point in the rules that for some reason gets special treatment while it can be handled the other way with no critical impact on the general mechanics.
     
    #20 Rey, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018