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Dodge Requirements

Discussion in 'Rules' started by TypeAtypical, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. TypeAtypical

    TypeAtypical New Member

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    The Dodge skill lists three potential requirements, two of which are extremely self-explanatory. The third however, is far more gray.

    The rule in question:

    Requirements
    Troopers can only Dodge if at least one of these is true:
    The first two make complete sense, and should cover all meaningful situations.

    The question:
    Does the third bullet allow a model belonging to the active player that is not the active model to Dodge in response to an ARO template weapon?

    The obvious answer is no, models in the active turn don't get reactions... but if that's the case, why does the third bullet exist? Being affected by a template weapon already generates a valid ARO, so if it was only referring to the Reactive turn, why the need for an additional bullet? Further, Reset has similar templating, but the more specific case where Reset can be declares (in response to a Hacking order or Comms attack) is specifically included in the Reactive Turn bullet.

    So, does the third bullet of Dodge allow for some kind of non-ARO, non-Active stateless phantom order that allows non-active Active player models to Dodge in response to a template attack?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    No, it's reinforcing that it allows for a trooper to Dodge as an ARO when attacked from out of LoF and ZoC, such as by a speculative shot from a Grenade launcher, or a plasma rifle from their rear arc.
     
  3. TypeAtypical

    TypeAtypical New Member

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    That's already covered as a Valid ARO under AROs though. Likewise, when Reset specifies that it can be done in response to a Hacking order, it's in the same bullet that specifies AROs and the Reactive turn. The third Dodge bullet specifies no necessary turn (active or reactive), and is decoupled from a valid ARO.

    Was it just done this way because... Lazy editing?
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    No, it's repetition because it's very relevant to Dodge and something people are likely to overlook if they're on the middle of a game and just look up Dodge rather than both Dodge and valid AROs.
     
  5. TypeAtypical

    TypeAtypical New Member

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    Then why not put it in the second bullet like they do with Reset and hacking? Why give it it's own bullet?
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    They probably didn't think it'd matter when it went to print.
     
  7. TypeAtypical

    TypeAtypical New Member

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    So yes, lazy editing. I'm just not in a habit of assuming something is a typo. They already air of the side of giving reactions to Templates in situations where they wouldn't otherwise, it wouldn't surprise me if it were an intended check against the power of template weapons.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    More like lazy reading. The very basic rules for Infinity specifies that only reactive players can declare AROs (see below quote where bold has been added for emphasis). There's also some very rules mechanically specific reasons why being affected by a template needs to go into the requirements part, and it has to do with when and what validates a Dodge ARO declaration.

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#ARO:_Automatic_Reaction_Order

    Troopers cannot react to AROs, since only the Active Player's Orders give AROs and only the Reactive Player can declare AROs.
     
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  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    And to expand (but only slightly) on Mahtamori’s post, in the Active Turn Dodge is a Short Skill. Short Skills are only declared as part of the Order Expenditure Sequence, by the Active Trooper. There is no way for other Troopers to declare Short Skills during the current Order.
     
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  10. TypeAtypical

    TypeAtypical New Member

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    As I said, the answer was obviously no, and it was made far more clear by a bullet in the Area of Effect section that I managed to dig up, but my question was this:

    I know the rules for AROs. They're not complicated. They also explicitly generate an ARO upon being affected by a Template weapon regardless of LOF, so please tell me the "rules mechanically specific reason" that "Trooper is affected by a Template Weapon" would need its own bullet point independent of turn order signifiers in the Dodge entry, when the more specific case in Reset (being affected by a Hacking attack) is consolidated with the Reactive Turn ARO bullet.

    This wasn't being contrarian, it wasn't not understanding how AROs work, it was just asking why the rulebook had a separate, turn order independent requirement for being affected by Template Weapons when as far as I can tell that is completely unique templating from any other rule in the game. It's not lazy reading, it's overly active reading.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Whether you are allowed to perform Dodge depends on what happens during step 5 and 6 of the sequence when you measure; if your trooper has not been in a situation where they meet the requirements of the skill Dodge, their skill turns to Idle. You're perfectly allowed to declare an ARO without meeting the requirements on declaration, other than for LOF requirements of course.

    If the line regarding being affected by a template wasn't there, you would need your opponent to be in Zone of Control or Line of Fire in order to Dodge regardless of whether you're affected by a template because you'd be failing requirements otherwise.

    What I meant with "lazy reading" is that anyone taking the absence of the superfluous "in the reactive turn" as indication you're allowed to declare AROs during their active turn have forgotten the most fundamental and defining rule for this wargame (and the meaning of the R in ARO), so it's an unfair accusation.
     
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