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Dodge and Martial arts

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Kwisatz Haderach, Jan 16, 2020 at 9:28 AM.

  1. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Ok, we got a nice question in our local community.
    The questions is - can you apply MA modificators to your dodge roll, while engaged?
     
  2. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    It's an attack mod and dodge isn't an attack, so you don't get the bonuses, but you can still apply the negative modifiers to the opponent.

    Most of the time you'll be better off hitting back anyway, only if you're 1 objective down and you'll put the other side into retreat or something equally specific...
     
  3. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    That is a good one.
    i was certain you could use MA only in combination with Attack skill, but there is no obligation in this regard. BUT the table refers to Attack mod and Opponent mod, so as cazboab wrote: No mod for your dodge, but a negative mod to your opponent in btb.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It is a strong suggestion that CC Special Skills only work if you declare a CC Attack label skill except in cases where it explicitly states otherwise (e.g. i-Kohl that calls out that its MOD works when Dodging as well).
     
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  5. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    If you allow MA to influence Dodge it should also influence shooting. As in move into btb and make a BS Attack on the way in instead CC and use MA to mod opponents response.
     
    #5 Mcgreag, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:03 PM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020 at 3:08 PM
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    The first two posters have the right answer: The CC skill chart definitions specify what those modifiers apply to.

    The Attack MOD column cannot possibly be applied to the trooper’s own dodge because that’s defined to apply:
    If the martial artist is dodging, no one cares about any modifiers to the stat it’s not using.
    If the martial artist’s opponent is dodging, then column two will apply to the opponent:
    • Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll.
     
  7. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    MA won't influence the MA trooper's dodge, but it will influence the response, and in the example you gave would apply.

    The alternative is that MA is only ever applicable to the CC attribute of both models, meaning that the negative modifiers don't apply to the engaged model shooting back, throwing a grenade or dodging, which as @solkan has pointed out isn't the case.

    The only really egregious point of this is that technically, if you can apply MA when you shoot, then you should be able to use the damage mods from lv1 and 2, which is bad enough when it comes from something like a magister Knight with a DA ccw, but the same magister jamming a dmg 17 ap+exp panzerfaust or missile launcher into your mouth would be hard for most people to swallow...
     
  8. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Burst MOD from MA is explicitly defined as only applied to the B value of a CC Weapon when used to make a CC Attack;

    Burst MOD: A MOD to the B value of the user's CC Weapon (Knife, CC Weapon, Pistol...) when making a CC Attack.

    Also consider that Dodge does not have a burst value that can be modified.

    Damage MOD from MA is explicitly defined as only applied to the PH value of a trooper when used to make a CC Attack, so this wouldn't ever be an issue.

    Damage MOD: A MOD to the PH Attribute of the user to determine the Damage of a successful CC Attack.

    This means CC Attacks that have a DAM value; Monofilament, K1, and pistols; do not benefit from the Damage MOD.

    --

    Further edits: for reference, we had a kerflufle about a year or year and a half ago where it was argued that the MOD to the enemy's roll could be applied without committing to a CC Attack. I don't agree and many others did not agree, but I think we eventually agreed to disagree and at least agreed on that the How To Read The CC Chart could have used better wording in this respect.
     
    #9 Mahtamori, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:57 AM
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020 at 11:03 AM
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    In summary, and as discussed before, to apply the MODs for a CC Special Skill you MUST declare CC Attack or equivalent, unless the CC Special Skill explicitly says otherwise, for example i-Kohl expanding it to include declaring Dodge or Engage.

    This is included in the upcoming FAQ.
     
    LoganGarnett and cazboab like this.
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Good to know! Any other spoilers you want to share? ;)