1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

different between Shoot+move and move+Shoot

Discussion in 'Rules' started by huttyman, Nov 6, 2020.

  1. huttyman

    huttyman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi guys, I believed there is thread somewhere that talked about this topic but not sure if it's conclude or not.

    my question is just like Topic. Is there any different between Shoot+move and move+Shoot ? Or any situation that can use differently?
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,996
    Likes Received:
    7,087
    Yes: there's a couple of situations where we're certain it matters.

    DTWs:

    1.2. Alice declares BS Attack from a position in Cover
    2. Bob declares BS Attack with a DTW and places the template but it doesn't hit Alice, which means it is cancelled
    3. Alice Moves
    4. No additional AROs
    5. Bob's ARO is invalid and the DTW is cancelled because it doesn't hit its target.

    Uncertain: is the DTW cancelled at Step 2 because it does not hit a valid Target or is it cancelled at Step 5 (as described above)? If it's cancelled at Step 2, then Alice could Move into the area it would have hit if it hadn't been cancelled. @wes-o-matic pointed out what I was missing.

    Impact Templates:

    1.2. Alice declares BS Attack from a position in Cover
    2. Bob declares BS Attack with a Plasma Rifle, placing the template centred on Alice while she has Cover. The Template gets placed on Declaration, so Bob must choose the target location at this point.
    3. Alice Moves forward to a new position, leaving Cover
    4. No additional AROs
    5. Bob's ARO is valid.
    6. Alice gains Cover on the BS Attack as the position Bob attacked her in she had Cover.

    This is certainly how it works (it was also how it worked in N3).

    Range:

    1.2. Alice declares BS Attack from a position in Cover clearly outside of Bob's positive Range band
    2. Bob declares Dodge because he knows that BS Attack isn't a good option.
    3. Alice Moves forward to a new position, leaving Cover
    4. No additional AROs
    5. Bob's ARO is valid.
    6. Alice's BS Attack is resolved vs Bob's Dodge.

    Uncertain: whether Bob can declare BS Attack on bad odds to call Alice's bluff and resolve the attack vs Alice when she's out of Cover.


    BS Attack with a non-template weapon:

    1.2. Alice declares BS Attack from a position in Cover clearly outside of Bob's positive Range band
    2. Bob declares BS Attack vs Alice while she has Cover.
    3. Alice Moves forward to a new position, leaving Cover
    4. No additional AROs
    5. Bob's ARO is valid.
    6. Alice's BS Attack is resolved vs Bob's BS Attack, Alice gets to benefit from Cover.

    Uncertain: whether Bob can declare BS Attack when Alice has cover and resolve the attack vs Alice when she's out of Cover.

    My opinion: the target location is a detail required for BS Attack and needs to be specified when the BS Attack is declared.
     
    #2 inane.imp, Nov 6, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,484
    huttyman and inane.imp like this.
  4. loco-la-cabra

    loco-la-cabra New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi all,

    I don't know about EN version of the ruleset, but in the ES version it is clearly stated that all the actions in an order are simultaneous. This means that the main difference between performing move+BS or BS+move is the amount of information you are revealing to your opponent at the time of his ARO declaration. If you start your order by moving, your opponent has to declare his ARO without knowing your second short skill.

    @inane.imp If you declare a BS ARO and then your target moves you can choose the most advantageous position for your BS from the whole movement of your target.

    Cheers,
     
  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    In 3rd edition, it was established that where the trooper uses the skill (where they fire from, where they put down their deployable, which item they activate, etc.) is established when you declare the skill. So if you declare Move+BS Attack, you have a movement path along which you can shoot. If you declare BS Attack first, you don’t, even if you then declare Move as the second skill. But where you were shooting a moving target wasn’t fixed until determining ranges and modifiers.

    Do keep in mind that while they added “ARO Check” to the order sequence, they did not add a corresponding step for the active trooper’s skills. And that cancelling of the active trooper’s skills is listed as happening before ARO declaration in some of the examples.
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,996
    Likes Received:
    7,087
    Can you show where you're getting that from?

    Because that's certainly not the case for Impact Templates.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,484
    I think the English pages are equivalent.
    I think you are referring to the grey info box in BS Attack which states in English that "Usually, the attack is made from the position that offers the biggest advantage" which is kind of at odds with the rules in Trooper Activation that states "All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared." as you logically can not both specify all details of an attack and also shoot the position that offers the biggest advantage automatically without first measuring. The only way the grey box and the important box do not conflict with each other is if the great box infers that a player's decision will usually be those that offers the biggest advantages, but doesn't force you to pick the best advantage (note: in N3 you were forced to pick the position that offered the best odds, iirc)

    Please note that I haven't read anywhere that would let you pick the target location for your attack after measuring distance the way it allowed you to in N3, so when you determine the most advantageous position mechanically for the target location is left unanswered by the N4 rules, as well. This also leads me to suspect that the offending paragraph under BS Attack is meant to infer what a player's choice usually is.
     
    inane.imp likes this.
  8. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2018
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    49
    Would it be easier to require that short skill BS attack can only be declared as the second short skill in your active turn and not the first?
     
  9. Ashtroboy

    Ashtroboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    44
    Now this is a shower thought more than anything over thought out but I think the whole when do you decide target point for ARO in BS attack + Move should be resolved as if BS attack + Idle because ARO is declared after first short skill you don’t know if the active figure will actually move. I can’t see anything in the rules ( I may have missed it) that would differentiate between the above to skill declarations as far as declaring AROs are concerned. ( but it’s conceivable that I missed something and/or my logic is faulty, I understand that a lot of this stems from the “all at the same time” phrase which could definitely be clarified)
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,996
    Likes Received:
    7,087
    Why?

    The use vs DTWs or to bluff a non-BS Attack ARO is valid and supported by the rules even if they are the same as N3.

    It would be easier to play W40K but a joy of Infinity is that there is a lot of tactical interplay around AROs: this is just one of those options.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,996
    Likes Received:
    7,087
    There isn't anything in the rules that differentiates between the two.

    In N3 there was an FAQ that did.

    This question is essentially "hey is this an intentional change from N3 or did you just forget to replicate the FAQ into the rules".
     
    loco-la-cabra and Mob of Blondes like this.
  12. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    959
    Wait, what is this referring to? Is there an unstated assumption that Bob's DTW wasn't close enough to hit Alice from her initial position?

    In 2, when Bob places his DTW template:
    • If Alice is outside the template the attack is cancelled (red Important box, p. 47).
    • If Alice is inside/in Silhouette contact with the template, the attack is effective and the ARO is valid.
    This is functionally equivalent to the measurement of LoF when declaring a BS Attack ARO.

    It's pretty clear that RAI this is supposed to be the way it works, the rules for template area of effect (grey box, p. 48 right column) includes this text regarding coordinated orders/fireteams and can only be referring to a DTW ARO against an active group of troopers: "When several Troopers are activated at the same time (a Coordinated Order or Fireteam, for example), the Template affects every Trooper that was in Silhouette contact with its Area of Effect at any time during that Order, since everything happens simultaneously during the Order." (Emphasis mine.)

    I think I have it right, that you find out in Step 2 whether the ARO DTW is cancelled or not because it has to touch Alice. If it gets cancelled, the cancellation happens immediately (due to the Important box on p. 47 saying the template will not affect any game element if the main target is outside it at declaration). If it doesn't get cancelled, it means Alice was inside the template, and no matter where she moves, she still has to resolve being hit by the DTW.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,996
    Likes Received:
    7,087
    Replied in the relevant thread.
     
    wes-o-matic likes this.
  14. huttyman

    huttyman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    2
    I believed it said in page21 (en version) about All in once. But also there was a right red box that said etc. on declare ARO. Is it "etc." the same in ES. And my curious is if it's the same then why write (Vice versa) after Move+Attack? Is it easier to just write Move+Attack alone?
    upload_2020-11-7_17-29-1.png
     
  15. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    1,182
    The PDFs say the same in both languages. Both have "all details" and "etc" (even page matches, 21), both have "viceversa" for ShortMov Skill + Short Skill (same page, 20), both mention Move + BS Attack with the shots in the middle of the move, neither give an example of BS Attack + Move. Even when not a word-by-word translation, the meaning is the same ("all details and choices" is just "all details" in Spanish, but you can see the page is mostly full by then, they also made it one continous paragraph).
     
    loco-la-cabra and inane.imp like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation