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Differences between US and Tak

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by BionicRope64, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. BionicRope64

    BionicRope64 Member

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    Hello
    So I'm new to Ariadna but It's an army I wanted to have a crack at for a while. I've actually got the US army box for a good price and even had the dismounted Maverick.
    So I got the US Ranger force box recently it was the army that interested me in Ariadna.
    I'm also really interested in Tartary but That's going to be a while for the models to come out. So I will be using Proxies for that.
    With both fractions, I would like to do some nice conversions to make more unique and personalised models. Arinda feels like that's a fraction you can do that more with than most others.

    But as I'm not good at lists or tactics: whats the main differences between how do the two fractions play?
    US looks more simplest, but tougher (in amour). And has Grunts.
    Tartary looks weaker but way more camo. So doesn't that make it technically tough? it's harder to find and hit so it can take more hits. Plus Tartary has more Antipodes and werewolves in it.
    Also is the Blackjack as good as the Ratnik? the difference between the Ratnik and the Blackjack. Blackjack is cheaper and chest mane. But has fewer shots and no V: dogged. Though I haven't seen many people use the Ratnik.
    Simply put my biggest fear is myself picking up more stuff for the US models and just finding out "Tartary dose it better so paly that instead.
    Thanks.
     
  2. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    They play very differently.

    USAr is a more static army, where the most popular strategy is castling up with your very resilient links and having your cheap mobile specialists press the buttons and grab the things.

    TAK is a more aggressive approach. Very rarely will you see a link team that doesn't make its way up the board.

    So basically, US takes punches while it does things, TAK punches really hard and does things while the opponent recovers

    In my opinion, Blackjacks are much better than Ratniks just because it's much easier to fit them into a list, while the other demands a list be built around them. I have yet to use the dual molotok one but the HRL has been nderwhelming so far
     
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  3. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    TAK definitely has an edge in long-range gunfights. The ability to throw a BS12 Mimetism HRL guy into a cheap defensive link gives you a lot of efficiency. Spetsnaz are great at playing Whack-a-mole on anything standing up to ARO. Vet Kazaks can generally outshoot enemy units by themselves (as I prefer to run them, giving them more mobility than keeping them with a link). Their power pieces are strong but expensive and typically bloated - for example, Scouts just aren't worth the buy-in, in my experience. This results in a relatively low Regular order count compared to US. They somewhat make up for it with relatively cheap irregulars.

    US has a decisive advantage up close. It's "everybody gets a flamethrower day" in America, and this gives US a huge advantage against aggressive Fireteams and enemies who use visual mods to their advantage. The profiles are also much more trim than TAK, giving them a huge advantage in model count. It's common to see US lists with 16-20 orders that actually perform pretty well.

    What does this look like practically? Armies that plan to shoot you up using isolated power pieces are well-addressed by TAK, because they can kill ARO support from a distance and crush the opponent with Antipodes. TAK has answers for TR bots, linked ARO pieces, solo TAGs that get out ahead of their support, etc. OTOH, a lack of cheap Flamethrowers puts TAK behind the curve vs. US against armies that leverage tough Fireteams to push into the midfield, especially those that have visual mods like ODD.
     
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  4. devil.advocates

    devil.advocates Well-Known Member

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    Personally, i have a hard time comparing both. They have different kind of roles to fit.

    Blackjack, on what i see, is an artillery unit, with T2 Sniper and AP HMG as weapon, and slow ass mov with okay heavy armor his job is to keep any enemy from closing the main line and to provide a cover fire for assaulting unit.

    Ratnik, however, is an assault unit, with light TAG level armor, dogged, minesweeper and powerful short range weaponry, they reminds me of Geckos a bit: Clear the road, shield the links, kill stuff and be a road block.

    Now this is the problem, in my opinion, Ratnik HRL doesn't reflect this: HRL are long range weaponry, so you're pretty much keep him from going foward, made him just another artilery piece, wasting his potential. And Heavy Shotgun, with his problem above, will feel like a tax since you wasn't use much anyway other than keep anyone from trying to strangle him in CC . Even if you really want to use it, you must sacrifice effectiveness of your HRL. Also, they make their Heavy Pistol useless.
    Basically it was an option that was too hard to be a jack-off-all trade and failed a bit at that.

    I think if i want to pick Ratnik, i'd rather pick the double Molotok one. All of their weaponry are usefull and wasn't invalid each other like the HRL one. Also, the ability to do Suppression is a big thing for me.
     
  5. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Assuming you have never played the game before here is my take:

    The US has a few problems. There are a lot of profiles that are subpar or simply don't make a lot of sense (lol MM especially). It lacks in several areas and is overly character dependent. I find myself relying on the same key models simply because you absolutely have to. You will find that TAK is probably better designed with fewer gaps, better links, in general stronger profiles (strong being price vs ability set). You will find more utility with more of the TAK units. However, because of the way the game is designed even if a model is not very efficient or below average that often pales to how you employ the model. This means that US can still be very competitive, especially with the season buffs.

    I disagree with what Brother Smoke says. US has strong armor in general, but it is not really a very defensive army. It doesn't have the units that can hold locations against the strongest opponents. Arm is kind of an overpriced stat. Even with its higher armor save, the US won't win the face to face roles as easily. Arm 3 vs 1 translates to around an 8% survivability increase. TAK durability evens out because skills like camo and mimetism are better than the arm bonus through F2F rolls (11% survivabilty). Those to ability dramatically increase the power of a unit on the attack. TAK has some of the strongest units in the game for its points and there are few problems a Vet Kazak in a link or a HMG Spetz can't solve. Camo is an amazing ability as well and TAK has so much its hilarious.

    Where US shines is doing lopsided trades, you have cheaper no frills units that can punch above their weight. You will generally lose if you try to drive straight through anything. I have faced lots of opponents that set up strong defense line where a direct assault is suicide. The math says that even the strongest units in my army would be on the losing side of probability if I instigate a face to face roll. The solution is to use US maneuverability and redundacy. I can attack with a cheap hardcase from a side angle to mitigate the math into something more favorable. If even if there is a still chance I die I am not crippled by 12 points and I probably have a second one or another option. You can do things like 13 Desperado suicide rushes to take out key units. Van Zant and Airbourne Ranger sandwich. The previously mentioned grunt sniper tower will get taken out, it is just going to eat up a ton of orders before it does and end up costing me like 40 points vs the 120 points in another army doing the same thing.

    TAK can actually do that as well now after their upgrades. Model for model, a lot of their options are just better, but they still don't have the sum of options the US has to be as maneuverable. I kind of think that US is not really a beginners army, but as I said previously you can do great work with them if you understand the fundamentals. And even though it may take a big longer to start, eventually you will figure the game out and it will be fun either way.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Yvain what are you running into that a minuteman ap hmg w/ a full team behind him can't win a FtF roll against?
     
  7. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Yudbots :stuck_out_tongue:

    But assuming you were serious, TO Camo unit in suppression are one example (Swiss guard are rough), but it is usually links with mimetism/camo where you have to split your burst will put the math out of your favor. MM also don't have the back up wound either so its hard to advocate committing them even when the math is 50 win vs 25 lose. MM I think are really poor. The Blackjack AP HMG is kind of your best bet for getting past most roadblocks if direct force is the best option. The US just doesn't have a Spetz HMG or HAC Tao type unit.

    I am super excited about Maraduer 5 man now though.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Yvain if you have to split your burst, you probably screwed up somewhere or at least one of your targets is out of cover (if they're lined up to cover a point perfectly.) And for TO camo units in suppression, hit them from outside of 24".
     
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  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    If you can't shoot them at 24"+ Minutemen can also speculatively hurl grenades at PH13 to force enemies out of Suppressive Fire.
     
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  10. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    You missed the point of the original comment. I was saying the US doesn't have really strong units that stack bonuses like TAK has. I never said there weren't ways of dealing with them. As I pointed out in my original statement, the best way to play US is to even the odds through other methods. IE going around, using smoke, etc etc.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, specifically what you said was:

    And that's exactly what I was critiquing.
     
  12. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    If you read my whole statement it makes sense within the context.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Uh.... no. What I pointed out there is straight-up wrong.
     
  14. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Have fun feeling like you are right.

    I won't be responding to anything you say anymore.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If you use ghostlord's dice calculator you might get a better sense of what's going on.
     
  16. Alkasyn

    Alkasyn Well-Known Member

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    He has a sense of what's going on, just doesn't want to discuss it with you. That's not hard to understand, there's many people who don't want to discuss things with you, get used to it.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, he was straight up giving a new player incorrect advice, if he wants to houdini his way out of that it isn't a good look. Some people are going to get salty and indignant when they're proved wrong.
     
  18. vsolitario

    vsolitario Member

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    First, playing defensive it's no the same as playing stationary.
    USARF has a ton of tricks, TAK have another great tricks.
    IMHO the difference between those two armies comes in the beginning. USARF shows almost everything in the table, the surprise can be the airborne deploy unit or 2 camo units.
    The fireteam of grunts can be varied, but functional is the sniper.
    The principal problem of usarf is they mobility, lots of units with 4-2 make accomplish an objective a headache.
    Then, you get your Uber mobility units, devil dogs, desperados and Mavericks, every one with different mission, but the 3 with smoke.
    Character are strong, my favorite is the Unknown ranger, a cc murder machine, but the lack of shock immunity make him a glass cannon.
    In TAK, everything is better. The absurd amounts of cammo make an easy ambush and make your opponent waste action trying to discover that dummy or mine.
    The veteran kazak have all the abilities of the unknown and more, but in CC are not the best piece.
     
  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    They Kinda are an inversion of each other.

    TAK focuses its solo strength units on its Elites, its Camo and AD units are very powerful individually USARF however has Rock solid line troops with fragile but effective trick pieces in the Airborne and Foxtrots.
    What this breaks down into is that TAK will hit you from an unexpected angle, and it will hit you hard, But USARF can hit you from multiple angles at the same time. its a question of style more than power in these cases.

    However, going into more detail than that, TAK operates as a very active army which defensively relies more on the opponent to be unable to engage their troops (Camo marker spam) than on being able to stand and fight. Its reactive pieces are limited to Linked Kazak MLs (Great for the price but very limited in number) The Kuryer Uragan (again solid but relatively pricey and limited in range) Tank Hunters (which are better as active pieces but can cover the ARO role in a pinch) and Mine spam (which can be cleared out with sacrificial troops)
    Now its strikers are fantastic, Veteran Kazaks, Spetsnaz (AD rifle and HMG) and Tank Hunters are amazing. Streloks absolutely dominate the midfield against other camo if they go first as well.

    Conversely USARF Has an insanely tough backbone in its grunts (Who are arm6 in cover for 10 pts) and pack HFTs and Shotguns galore for area denial. They really to epitomize taking ground and holding it and their ARO presence is legit. Grunt snipers arent as painful when they win F2F rolls as Line Kazaks MLs are, but they are tougher when they lose (which is more likely) and they are far cheaper in terms of SWC. Grunt Shotguns and flamers are then just a nightmare to shift from covering short firelanes. and USARF still has access to some camo shellgames in the form of the hardcase.
    USARF then doubles down on ARM reliance in its blackjacks which are great centre piece models as both active and reactive anchors and its Bikes which are Tough or fast depending on your desires.

    Outside of its limitations in dealing with TO Camo (which can be somewhat traded against or spec fired to death, which USARF has a lot of good options in both those strategies) I actually think that once the dust settles and the meta shifts to adopt more Sensor troops/profiles that USARF is going to be the stronger of the two secotrials long term.

    In the last year, changes to ITS classifieds, ITS missions and the inclusion of Rosie in the faction have done a lot to mitigate the limitations the sectorial had in certain missions.

    Finally, Grunts, MI FD1 Grunts, and Dogged FD2 Maruaders are hillariously good in most missions. Grunts are the bread and butter of the sectorial, if you dont like that playstyle then its not going to be for you.
     
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  20. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    In terms of ARO threats, I'd say that TAK can do most things that any army can do;
    • Linked units, (with B2); everything from HMGs, MLs, Snipers, Molotoks, HRLs, LRLs, even down to the humble T2 Rifle.
    • Suppression fire; what with Spetsnaz HMGs, Streloks with MM rifles, Tankhunters, plus various other camo troopers & the Molotok-toting Ratnik. Most of those are packing special ammunition types as well, for added danger to enemy units.
    • Camo surprises, including variety of minelayers and ambush camo decoys.

    My first impressions with TAK is that they tend towards elite & expensive troopers, but which don't quite have the staying power if they're hit. Instead, they tend to prefer stacking odds in their favour to avoid being hit at all. (E.g. I've been running LI lists in which only 1 model doesn't have mimetism).
    The sectorial also seems to have plenty of tools to avoid LoL; 2 types of Veteran units, plus a decent array of CoC models.
    It also has by far the most flexibility in fireteam composition, so you can create some pretty brutal links that still have a great range of tools and specialists to cover almost anything.

    On the other hand, I can see it being easier to create USARF lists with 10+ robust models; if TAK wants multiple combat groups then they tend to need to be on the squishier side.