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Depressed with N4 Haqq

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by HotFreshTofu, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    I just finished a TTS tournament game of supplies using the list above, 8-1 victory. I got 2 shit classified objectives and couldnt secure hvt.

    Saladin is the man. I am currently reading Dan Jones' book TheTemplars, in which the historical Saladin is of course a prominent figure. So, this all just seems very serendipitous. I am gonna say that his contribution to my list was massive. Rethinking the order groups with the freedom his ability and extra CT provides is marvelous.

    My fiday once again slipped on a banana peel, as they always do. Completely failed. I cant catch a break with these guys.

    Asawira doc is nice. As expected he is able to take care of 3 jobs at once, moving the nasmat, picking up objectives, and killing. Thank you very much for this recommendation. He didnt doctor anyone, but he regenerated into an engaged state with a Varangian, tanked two hits when the muktar shot into the CC, but was exploded by the varangians AP weapon. Failed the second regen. Although he couldnt be activated on turn 3, the regen provided me with his order before he was executed in CC. regen on 14 is wild.


    ty you all again for some really solid suggestions that directly affected my enjoyment playing vanilla haqq.
     
    #21 HotFreshTofu, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  2. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Glad the forum got you inspired again!

    If you are willing to tweak your list a little more, you might want to find the point to give the Fiday mines. It gives them more flexibility and you can then use them to lock down an area of the board. You could downgrade the Nadhir to the cheaper profile, or switch it to a Farzan, Shujae, or a Muyib smoke LGL. Any of those choices could work.
     
  3. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    @Brokenwolf

    I was running that version before, and I do like the flexibility it offers, particularly when going second.

    However, If I use the nadhir I like the Flexibility the Rifle Lsg version has. so, its a wash either way. Definitely something worth considering, though.
     
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  4. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    My rate with haqqisalm vanilla is around 20%-25% (around 12 games with them)

    The 15 limit list have killed haqqislam.

    I know that muttawia needed a fix but he recive like 3 nerfs (jammer (2), cost rise, separate profile) was necessary? I think that wasn't necessary at all because you can only place 15 models on the table. Good idea AVA 2 in vanilla, problem out.

    Playing with 2 daylamis 2 muttawia and Zuleyka and hunzakuts you are running 6 irregulars, and it shows in the field, if you don't run them it's hard to play, anyone can run insite to you deploy zone and feels free to kill everyone. So you are playing with 9-10 regular vs list that got 15-20 orders like CA (avatar) or yu jing etc...

    Not balanced at all

    in the other hand things that are a must in vanilla:

    Fiday and Aldjabel both. you all know the reasons

    Namur spitfire: It's not OP but it's all we have now, I'm trying this profile a lot these days for some reasons 15 limit order grup, specialist, and the main reason is the E/marat, you can cover 2 templates in left and right site of her, and do what muttawia do, also you can move to kill Cheerleaders and take objectives.

    Saladin the best lieutenant we got, because nobody is using tariq we got better spitfires now and superjump is just disappointing (2 nerf on him feels bad... unplayable, nothing special)

    Tuareg HD: now this profile is one of the best to control the field, we can't deal with Cutter, hac tao, Avatar, spinx etc... so we need to hack them, and this man can do this job good.

    Al hawwa / barids HD : same reasons

    In conclusion my games are about hacking spotlights and throwing missles, with some fidays, muktar and namur, I do the same as jammer but with spotlight with 3 or 4 Hackers.

    My feeling is that making lists are a little bit boring right now, the 15 order list condition us to put the same, if not the list don't work, also there's no point in playing haqqislam list with 10 regular orders 5 irregular vs Avatar lists with 17 orders that avatar solo can take like 13 himself.... What I want to say is that I have to fight the same avatar list that kills me in N3 with less troops and orders, and his list gets more orders than before or better profiles and buffs.
     
    #24 Fenrir, Dec 9, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
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  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I haven't bothered with hunzakuts at all in N4. They were frankly barely any good in N3 for their cost and they're the main casualty of being irregular in a 15-trooper list in N4. I can justify a lot of irregulars, especially with Saladin, but not them. I'll pay the small amount extra for a better, regular model and be glad to do so.
     
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  6. sackofowls

    sackofowls Member

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    I like them just for being an Infiltrating Deployable Repeater. The mines a d Forward Observer is a bonus.

    Otherwise you are taking Pitchers to get Repeaters up field quick.
     
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  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I might be still in the N3 mindset, but I am still looking at this camo baseline in most of my vanilla lists for slowing things and pushing buttons:

    Camo Baseline
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    HAWWA'; (Minelayer) Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 23)
    FARZAN (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    0.5 SWC | 76 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    It takes 5 slots, but is cheap gives four Mimetism -3 Camo Markers and 2 no mod Camo Markers. It also has a good stack of mines and the deployable repeater is there when I face something heavy.
     
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  8. sackofowls

    sackofowls Member

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    That's similar to what I like as well. Usually I go with the Hawwa hacker though.

    I think with Saladin you could take 5 or 6 Irregular Orders.

    gZEJaGFxcWlzbGFtAIEsAQEGAYFDAQYAAoFDAQYAA4FCAYRyAASBNgEDAAWBVAEDAAaBUAECAA==
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Yeah, that's my position. I think Barids are amazing for their cost and I'm happy taking one or two in every list, so I've got the ability to projecting hacking areas if I need to without taking the extra irregular troop.
     
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  10. sackofowls

    sackofowls Member

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    I like Barids more in Bahram where I can stick one in a link. Maybe even only for the first turn to fire off the pitcher more accurately.

    In vanilla I just hate wasting an order to fail my BS roll.
     
  11. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    In my point of view Hassassin is the best thing we can play right now, haqqi players. the other sectorials vanilla, qapu and ramah they stay far behind to the point of being frustrating for us, with hassassin you feel safe.
     
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  12. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Haqqislam lost their trademark strategy with N4, but I don't agree they are bad. With the 15 order limit though, they are pushed into a very similar list strategy as every other army, which is my main gripe. We were the quintessential, piece trading and asymmetric warfare army and it really made us different. With the 15 orders, most armies seem very similar now.

    This doesnt mean we are bad though. We have some very good pieces, and many of our expensive pieces do numerous roles (Shujae, Asawira, Maggy, Al'Fasid), so we have options. We do have to curb our irregular orders now, even with Saladin, simply because we cant pump out that many over the 15 order limit, and we have no peripheral buddy units like other factions to get some piece trading. Mutts are no longer the autoinclude, but they are still good (9 point with shotgun/emarat/smoke is REALLY good).

    The battles I am watching of HB/Ramah/QK/Vanilla have all been very good.
     
  13. Ashtroboy

    Ashtroboy Active Member

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    Well I’m hoping that most ITS tournaments won’t use the 15 trooper limit.

    As an aside anyone else feel like our “high WIP specialists” are getting overshadowed by the other factions?
     
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  14. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    In what way? Were near the top of the pack behind ALEPH and CA, but only slightly. Nomads, and Ariadna have a good few, followed by YuJing, and last being Pano. Nothings really changed in this.
     
  15. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    While it would be nice for a silly match, getting rid the 15 unit limit would break so many units, like our Availability Total Infiltrating Daylami. I hope people that run ITS events think long and hard prior to implementation.
     
  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    A forlorn hope, I think, made worse by the fact that while most factions would be reasonably balanced without the limit, the ones that wouldn't really wouldn't. And Haqq is one of them. Maybe if Daylami had an AVA other than total in vanilla.
     
  17. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Spite alone holds me aloft

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    One could try a 20 order limit, maybe even have that limit include tac aware. But unlimited with daylami as they are is madness.
     
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  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I will die on the hill that AVA:Total is always a design mistake. But on the other hand, I am not a designer, and my armchair is very comfy, thankyou for asking.
     
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  19. HeadChime

    HeadChime Active Member
    Warcor

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    I've probably played approximately 20 games of vanilla Haqq in N4 and I can confidently state that Haqq aren't bad, but they're definitely different.
    I have a winrate of somewhere around 50%. I'm a pretty mediocre player - I'm the kind of guy that might finish just about in the top half in a tournament - so if I can maintain a roughly even winrate with a faction then I don't feel there's much wrong with the faction itself, and rather losses are due to my own mistakes.

    I don't think that Haqq has as much power as some of the top contenders at the moment, such as the Avatar lists. But I do find the faction has good assets and can definitely compete with everything at some level. I've played against lists that I've felt very able to beat, and I've played against lists that felt more powerful than my own. As a general impression, I haven't been disappointed with what the faction offers as a whole.

    I will say straight up that if you're playing Haqq in N4 similarly to how you played Haqq in N3, you're going to struggle. The faction retains much of its identity, but the rules of the game have changed, and therefore playstyles and lists need to change too.

    The 15 order limit hits cheap irregulars hard, but you can compensate for this. If you run throwaway irregulars that you don't plan on spending many orders on, then the 15 order limit means you're handicapped because you're probably on 9 or 10 orders. You've just voluntarily thrown away orders by including those irregulars. If you run irregulars that you actually plan on aggressively using then the 15 order cap isn't such a hard limit because your irregulars are virtually regular orders anyway - those irregular orders are always going to be spent on essential troops, so you're still playing the game with roughly the same orders as most other people. Compare a 5 point Kum biker to Zuleyka, for example. In the case of the cheap Kum biker, it's not contributing much except for smoke, and you could reasonably argue the order is 'wasted'. In the case of Zuleyka, you're going to want to actively spend those orders every turn because she's a monster. Is that such a loss compared to having another regular order? Not in my eyes - those orders are still actively contributing to how much threat you project.

    In terms of Haqq being different, what I mean is that we now have far more competent gunfighters. Mukhtar, Shujae, Nadhir, Asawira, and Shakush are all very good at winning straight up, everyday, face-to-face rolls. Yes, we can't spam irregulars. But now we have BS13 troops with mimetism-6, that can kill enemy units the old fashioned way. CB takes with one hand and gives with another. If you're approaching N4 similarly to N3 and spamming lots of cheap, superfluous irregulars that don't do anything then you're going to hate it. If you're selecting a choice few that actively contribute to your gameplan and spending excess points on strong toolboxes or gunfighters then I think you'll have more success. Or at least I have. And in that way I think Haqq is very different now.

    I'll put my latest list below, just in case you're interested. It's not quite finished yet (I made a tweak the other day and didn't quite finish it up - need to spend a few more points). Not claiming it's perfect or anything close, but I'm happy with it and it's taken me some time to get to. I was initially struggling with TAGs, so you'll see lots of allowances for that (hacking / EM templates / AP weapons / EXP CCW).

    Generic Haqq
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    HAWWA' (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (0 | 14)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 296 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #39 HeadChime, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
  20. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    With 4 points left unspent is there a reason you don't get a second NASMAT for your doctor?
     
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