Depressed with N4 Haqq

Can you tell us more about the issues you are having? What missions are you having trouble with and what opponents are you dealing with? Please post your last list, opponent and mission recap and maybe we can help.

I have not been using the new units yet because I just am relaying on the past favorites. As you mentioned, Daylami are awesome.

 

2-3 Daylami + Nadhir + TRbot is awesome ARO combo for a low price

Nadhir either burns down most of the fireteam that they catch or make enemy team waste a lot of time setting smoke to move out.
If you reveal Daylamis or Nadhir too soon its on you.

Mukhtar is still here, fidays are still here, camo units that were good in N3 are still here and still good, new Zuleyka overshadows the nerf of mutts. There is still very effective CoC that lets you survive through any alpha strike.

Haqq is pretty good now imo, not as good as vanilla Yu Jing or Ariadna (both of those just swim in bullshit units) but better than Nomads.

also consider that in your typical haqq list like 85% of your troops have direct templates which makes anyone in your list good for trading

 

Certainly Vanilla has changed a lot in N4. In N3, I was playing exclusively Vanilla and basically playing it as HB + Saladin + Mukhtars, and it was great.

The loss of N3 Saladin makes Vanilla a lot less interesting for my playstyle. Mukhtars are still pretty great, but they're less of a reason to play Vanilla now that HB has Yara and improved Asawiras.

I can't say whether Vanilla Haqq is good or bad in N4, but I can say that every time I tried to make a Vanilla list, I was dissatisfied with it and was happier when I rebuilt it in HB. Consequently I haven't played a single game with Vanilla in N4.

Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Pano for example has always been a sectorial-only faction, their sectorials are just plain better than their Vanilla, and that's been fine.

Anyway, one thing I think Vanilla Haqq would be best for is a Maggie list. There was a thread about that a while ago. Maggie seems to work a lot better in Vanilla than in Rama. Give it a try!

(Also, I haven't used the Shujae much yet, but I've been happy when I have. You can't be committed using it for AROs, but as long as you're flexible and use it for Flamenspear ARO, suppression, button-pushing, or mines as the occasion demands, it feels pretty good for the price. It's a good holdback model when going second.)

 

Huh, did everyone notice that the HaqqIslam Saladin has STRATEGOS L2? Using him to move around orders while using Hafza as a decoy seems like it could be nice in Vanilla.

 

Huh?

 

N3 Saladin (with N3 Strategos) synergized particularly well with Haqq. I'm less fond of N4 Saladin.

 

Because of removing the opponent's ability to have a reserve trooper?

 

Yup! That ability was pretty sweet.

Plus I can now spend a command token to reserve both my Fidays even without Saladin.

 

Nadhir and Daylami fill different variations of the same general role of ARO piece. Firstly, Daylami are better for straight forward speedbumps, the best in the game IMO, but they are also much more expensive in terms of "slots" which is now a resource alongside points and SWC. Because of this cost difference, theres no argument to say that they are simply "better", only better in certain contexts and ways.

Secondly, the Nadhir has a far higher deterrence and "fog of war" factor to it - your opponent does not know where it is, or even if you have one! And with how it interacts with link teams, certain armies are *heavily* impacted by that. I've run my CA lists with a "Noctifier Gap" to capitalize on this phenomena. Run 14 models, or 14 + an airdrop, and your opponent may play with a Nadhir in mind and grant free value.

What specifically are you struggling with in Haqq? If you post that then perhaps people can give you some ideas.

As someone who ran that combination for a very long time in Combined Army, I can genuinely say the game is better off for it being removed. Its similar to guided missile in that it takes the not-your-turn agency that this game is known for and shits all over it. Good riddance.

 

Quite possibly. Either way, I'm finding I have much less reason to play Vanilla now that it's gone. Like I said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the new reality.

 

I've only played 3 games with Haqq in N4 (got 2nd in a tournament, after two wins and one draw with the 1st place), so I don't think I know the full advantages and disadvantages of our army. Yet I'm rather optimistic and really like the new stuff - tried Nadhir, didn't surprise anyone with ARO blast, yet he did a good job.

And about Saladin or strategos generally - I also miss the old option of removing the opponent's reserve in Haqq, but after playing against Avatar, I'm quite happy that it's gone. That beast is IMHO too good with what it already has.

As the poeple before me already asked, maybe give us some more information, @HotFreshTofu ? Maybe there's some way to come to good conclusions.


PozdRawiam / Greetings

 

For ease of reading. Also my N4 win rate is roughly 20%. :D
Asawira
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 9 1
ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
DJANBAZAN Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
HAWWA' (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
KAMEEL (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)

GROUP 2 2 3 1
NADHIR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)

4.5 SWC | 300 Points

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So I had a long and involved post that really cuts down to this. Try something different.

You've identified some issues you feel are holding you back. Nadhir isn't "good enough"? Replace it. Group 2 is clogged with irregulars? Replace those. Wondering about different sized groups? Try it.

To your points, it would appear to me that simply moving something from group 1 to group 2 would enhance the hidden deployment threat (which group will fuel it?) and add another regular order to group 2. Probably a "power piece" which doesn't see much activity and can function on like three orders. If not, it can let you do more with your irregulars for positioning or whatnot.

But what I can say is my defeats have all rested firmly on me. Bad positioning, losing focus, Sheskiin, poor deployments, smarter opponents.

The list I've been using to lose with for all of N4 is here: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/a-test-of-the-army-7-posting-system.38518/ It was specifically designed to make me look stuff up and learn how things work. So it's been pitted against N4 book missions and one round of Mindwipe. Steel Phalanx, Araidna, Shasvastii and Nomads.

 

If you need to do stuff with irregular troops, that is the way to go. I play this split for a year now and have no issues with that. It also adds flexibility to your game, since you may have four options (irreg 1, attackpiece 1, irreg 2 and attackpiece 2) instead of 1,5 with the 10/5 split.
But on the other hand I don't feel comfortable with more than three or four irregular orders in total.

 

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I play this list.

 

Just some quick notes about what I've found successful in N4:

Haqqislam's irregular troops: generally good, but with some truly exceptional standouts. Two to four daylami panzerfausts are stars in any list and the backbone of your defence. Vanilla Haqqislam's bikes (especially Zuleklya) are also great, and of course the Libertos is highly effective. But you simply can't take more than a certain number of irregular troops without straining your groups, which leads us to...

Saladin: the secret of Saladin in N4 is that he's our leader of Irregulars. If you're making use of his ability to swap models between combat groups, extra reserve and native extra token, Saladin is a command token machine, which among other things means you can afford to run one or two extra premium irregular troops and convert their orders regular in back to back turns if required. That's his niche in N4, and well worth taking advantage of.

Asawira: others have mentioned this. For what it's worth, I have a soft spot for the doctor with a Nasmat. It feels really lean to move the Asawira forward to accomplish objectives and get kills and at the same time heal things with a nasmat wandering around as required. Spitfire is fine, but can be duplicated by the Shakush or Azra'il.

Mukhtar: turns out they're still good, but the Red Fury is a piece you'll want only if you aren't having to punch out a Jotum every game. But the Mukthar hacker (especially if you've got a guided missile remote just kind randomly in a list) has been a real performer for me and great for objectives/classifieds.

Fidays: they're good, but cheaper now. I tend to use them more aggressively and just charge into melee or shotgun range on the first order.

There's plenty of other good stuff happening as well but that's what's been of my mind the most. Here's a sample list putting them all together:

Mukhing about
──────────────────────────────────────────────────
GROUP 1 1 5 1
FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
KUM Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)

GROUP 2 8 2 1
SHAYTANIYAH REMOTE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
SHAKUSH Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 58)
SHAKUSH PILOT Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) AP Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
MUKHTAR (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 31)
KAMEEL (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
5.5 SWC | 300 Points
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Shit, cuz thats exactly the type of list I would build for vanilla and looks similar to my go-to army philosophy for most armies. I think your biggest issue is that you cannot pinpoint a specific weakness or problem with what you are running. One possible problem is the oversaturation of forward deployment. I always take a ton of it in first drafts of lists, and end up needing to cut one to boost the strength of something else. Four models that deploy forwards, with three of them overlapping quite a bit, could be an overinvestment

One thing I can recommend is investing more points into the Mutt. The 10 point Jammer/Smoke is so good even though its twice the damn price it used to be and has limited ammo. It shits all over certain types of attack piece in a way that the daylami do not (looking at you McMurrough!). I can also definitely second the Asawira doctor mentioned in an earlier post, though ideally you'd cut a skirmisher and take a replacement gun if you changed it. Big fan of aggressive specialists, and Asawira consistently perform well at whatever task I've given them (but then again, thats mostly been in Hassassins)