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Deploying mines while Climbing Plus

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by ObviousGray, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Aside from vertical surface mine, here's one thing my people kept asking about;

    a C+ unit climbs until they reach the edge of rooftop, now since their base is touching the cliff he declares to set a mine up on the cliff - which is a horizontal surface.

    Is this valid?
     
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  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't see why not. He meets all of the requirements to declare the proper mine skill.

    The only caveat is whether or not you can move part of your base off of a surface you are climbing on during your order, as you would have to to validly place the mine in b2b with a position you were in during your movement. I don't believe there is an answer to that question.
     
  3. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    If I remember well, you can't deploy anything on a vertical surface.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    The Mine is being deployed on the roof, not the wall.
     
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  5. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    So.. it's able?
     
  6. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    Technically there is one problem with this kind of movement in general: the general movement rules.
    The base has to be fully supported by the surface...which is obviously not the case when climbing on a rooftop.
    While I agree that there has to be a way to get on there, I am not sure if this "last leap" can be taken partially...the example for measuring a climb actually gives this leap for free.

    If taken strictly, I would say there is no way to follow the general movement rules and being able to place something in basecontact on the rooftop, though this would be a cool move.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    The trooper climbs the wall until they are touching the rooftop, still fully supported by the wall. The Mine is then placed on the rooftop, in base contact with the trooper.

    What am I missing that stops this working?
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The corner of the mine's base/Silhouette is in contact with the corner of the Climbing+ base/Silhouette.
     
  9. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I actually see the point @Sergej Faehrlich is trying to make. The trooper's base is at 90° to the roof, so physically it won't be able to touch the Mine token's base and be fully 'supported' -- it will only work on paper with zero-thickness lines. In the real world, though, objects do have more than one dimension, so this kind of mine placement goes toe-to-toe with infinitely fine pie-slicing and other things that can only be true on paper, while being extremely difficult (if not impossible) to demonstrate in the physical world.
    So, if this is the way it's supposed to be working, maybe let's also put infinitely fine pie-slicing in the rules, shall we?
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    No, it doesn’t go hand-in-hand with infinite pie-slicing. If you have a flat vertical wall and a flat roof, the Mine and the trooper can both be fully supported and be touching each other. Not theoretically, but actually physically in the real-world.

    Obviously if there are any parapets, overhangs or anything like that, it’s another matter, but nobody hasn’t mentioned complications like that.
     
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  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Follow up question :

    I get the fact that you cannot deploy a mine on a vertical surface because deployement rule says you have to deploy on an horizontal surface (unless you have Climbing plus)

    But I can't find the RAW that says "you have to deploy on an horizontal surface". Does someone know where it is ?
     
    #11 Arkhos94, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  12. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents, but I don't think these are official.

    You can deploy mines on a roof from the side of the building, but you need to be have enough of your silhouette showing to be shot from the roof (3mm above edge, same height as a base to get equivalent of B2B contact).

    Mines can not deploy on vertical surfaces because they don't have any adhesive.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's a trait of Deployables. Underline emphasis added.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Traits

    Deployable. The user of this weapon or piece of Equipment can place it on the battlefield—but never on a vertical surface— whereupon it becomes an independent element.
    I agree it is physically impossible for a Climb+ trooper to deploy a mine on the rooftop without peeking over the edge, even theoretically so, but I don't agree on the 3mm condition. Not that it matters, you can simply vault a tiny fraction in the active turn and since you're moving it'll create reciprocal LOF 99.95% of the time. All it matters for is ARO.
     
  14. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    I said 3mm because its the height of the black dot on the silhouette which needs to be visible to be shot. Also a base is usually 3mm, which is the height of the mine, and the side of the mine should be in fully in contact with the model when being placed.

    But I don't recall anything official, it's how I would house rule it.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Could someone explain why it's impossible to place the Mine on the flat rooftop?
     
  16. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I guess it depends if you consider an infinitly small single point is enough to consider it touching ... it's just that it takes touching to its most extreme limit. So depending on who you ask it may be seen as an abuse or not.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is a consensus in mathematics whether two points fully in contact with two different edges can touch each other at the vertex where the two edges meet. By the same token, arguably it is physically impossible for a piece of MDF to be so perfect that the edge is not rounded - meaning that the vertex is incapable of fully supporting the models. Also, theoretically it should be physically impossible for you as a human to place the mine so that it touches the minelayer, is fully supported by the rooftop, and while having the minelayer be fully supported by the wall because the point at which you can fulfil all the requisite conditions is infinitely perfect. This is where vaulting and some very minor intent comes into play.
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Thanks. Unfortunately that argument also applies to base contact in general, as bases are conical sections so the contact area is still just an infinitesimal point. Even if using flat-sided bases or theoretical Silhouettes, you're still talking about an infinitesimally narrow line.

    Yes, there is a consensus, this is week one basic geometry. The line where the edges touch is the intersection of two non-parallel planes, and by definition both planes touch the line, because that's what defines the line.

    I don't really know where to start on this. You're effectively claiming that bases can never be fully supported - because it's not just the edge of the MDF that isn't perfect.


    Edited for clarity on tapered bases...
     
    #18 ijw, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  19. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    How is it physically impossible to have a base on side of a box touch a base on the other side of the box?

    I would post a photograph demonstrating the situation, but I don't have time before I have to go to work.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Two bases can touch when on the same plane just fine. Just mash them together while placing them or make sure it ever so slightly overlaps the trajectory - the position of the mine isn't as critical in this case because it IS possible to make physical contact between the two. And it's also fully possible to fully support a base because the players need to agree on what's the wall and what's vertical, etc, anyway and the rules doesn't deign to consider that some people make terrain like forest floor.

    As for the geometry 101 consider that the mine and the unit is on top of the planes and are not the planes themselves.
    The question I am pondering is, if two such building vertices are in perfect contact with each other (effectively four planes forming one vertex), is it possible for two entities resting on top of one of the planes and on either side of the vertex to touch?

    But effectively what you're saying is that we can accept a degree of sloppiness in our definitions so that it's possible to err on the side of what is convenient.
     
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