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Dear Shang-Ji, you had your chance

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    ...and you didn't get allowed to shine.

    You exist within a faction where giving an Assault Hacking Device to the Zuyong and adding the line "Special Fireteam: Up to one Zuyong can join a Zhanshi Fireteam Core" would nearly completely remove what little reason to exist you have. Your name means "superior" but there's little you're superior at doing. You have the perfect stats in close combat for spending as many points as possible with as little return on investment as possible. You have increased PH, but no meaningful way of using it. You have a set of weapons which largely are downgrades compared to the cheaper Zuyong, yet your BS isn't any better.

    Please consider my suggestion.

    I'm going to once again move Tactical Awareness up to the common stat line, but in order to do that we need to do some heavy pruning of the profiles. In reality I'm not adding it as much as spreading it to a few profiles that I think really needs it. We're also going to try and make that statline superior in terms of meaning "useful". All the while without actually trying to change the unit's role too much.

    Shang-Ji edited.JPG

    This should be accurate within 2 or so points upwards (cross-referencing Orcs). Ideally that Shock CCW should go in favour of a Knife as well, but I'm not going back to edit the image now, I've had enough of Gimp for today. I tried to remove everything that didn't have an SWC cost since that seems to be a criteria for Tactical Awareness, but kept the LT profile now that I look at it might make more sense to be the same as what I wrote Number2 into.
    Basically, I tried to simply make this unit feel superior on the table, but without plugging more than one of the sectorial's weaknesses. Think of it as a sort of generic Tai Sheng.
     
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  2. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I could get behind these changes. Especially that BS14. Part of the Zuyong's problem in mixed HI links is that it isn't bringing any firefight advantage to the table. Tai Sheng is a great include because she brings a BS14 Mk12 or Breaker Combi to the party alongside specialist skills and NCO. Not much point spending more to grab a Shang Ji when you can get a Zuyong with an HMG and Tactical Awareness for an SWC discount and the same BS.

    Part of me kind of wishes they were also a generic source of linkable NCO since right now, we only have Tai Sheng for that. Might be nice to pop it on a Spitfire or something (though probably not compatible with giving them all Tactical Awareness).

    But either way, with just the changes above, that Number 2 profile would find its way in to a lot of my links. TinBot Tai Sheng, HMG TacA Zuyong, Number 2 Shang Ji, Haidao KHD, and a Pangguling covers the bases well and makes a nice, resilient link with some good toolbox options.
     
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  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    On the whole it's a good idea, though I'd keep that PH 14. Look at how MAF players love their PH 13 Suryats. I'd lose the Shock CCW instead, this unit has no business going into CC anyway.
     
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  4. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Shang Ji Post Mortem. :P
     
  5. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Any Shang Ji analysis is exhumation. They died a long time ago :disappointed:
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The PH isn't useless, but having both PH and WIP at 14 is a concession to keep the price down since it's affected by stat scaling at that level, and I think WIP is more important in general both for Discover, the DiscoverThrower and for the AHD profile as opposed to the less-oft used Dodge.
     
  7. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I honesty think Shang-Ji can be really useful in IA, either as part of the über-Pain-Train or as the spearhead of a cheap Zhanshi Core (either the HRL or Spit/TA profiles). Sprinkle a MSR Haidao in there and you're good to go!

    Haven't tried it yet, but will get to it.
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that most people probably wouldn't like the decrease. "ORCs have PH 14, and superior Shang Ji only PH 13?"
     
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  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you'll ever see Tactical Sense on profiles that don't cost SWC, by design. I dunno if it costs SWC itself, but it's currently only on profiles that otherwise cost SWC. If you want two Zuyong HMGs and three Zuyong Haris guys then yes you'll get five orders and five TacSense orders but you'll pay 4.5 SWC for it.

    Asking for tactical sense on Shang Ji as standard feels therefore like it is only going to happen if you accept that Shang Ji will cost SWC across the board. And if Shang Ji were redone as a "tactical and weapons specialist branch" that had a Spitfire, AHD, HRL and a Haris/Tinbot profiles then yeah that'd be fine, but other than that I think that appears at this stage to be a soft rule.
     
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  10. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

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    @Mahtamori I think the Shang Ji are fine as is......Mostly. I do agree that lowering CC to 15 and removing the CCW to save points is a good thing. BUT! That PH is good at 14. Knowing I have good dodge odds is great when I need it and considering all the medkit rolls to revive from the HI paramedics. 11 is better than 10.

    Not everything needs TA (tac awareness.) Although another profile like the AHD or HRL would be nice.

    Agree wholeheartedly about giving the multi an underslung option. Underslung, multi and heavy weapons should really be their shtick.

    Overall. They actually make good close range spearheads for the Zuyong cores. I got 3 games in this weekend against TAK, VIRD and OSS. And those Shang Ji were either MVP or damn close in all 3. That BTS 6 alone allowed them to weather so much hacking. And ARM 4 paid for itself many times against all that T2.

    And special props to the Shang Ji Haris tinbot, TA Spitfire and multirifle Haris. For sweeping OSS off the board. 131pts well spent.

    But they can definitely save some points by cutting the CC aspect of their profiles down. At least 2 pts there.
     
    #10 Daemon of Razgriz, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  11. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Good and simple resulotion - I like it! That every Shang Ji has TacA give them a real superior feeling. And it reflects, that this Invicibels has fight for years to gain their tactical awareness. You can now form a 5 strong Paintrain with 10 Orders, but you will pay for it and you have to use every single one in one turn to max that out. I would put the CC on 16 - just for cosmetic and keep the S-CCW - only for the case, you never know.

    I wonder for what use Shang Ji had all that profiles, when people will use only a few of it - if they do at all. Okay IA is very new, but only a very few lists I see here in the forum have a Shang Ji in it and it has a Spitfire (even I tried to squeeze him in a Zhansi core).

    So CB - it is not too late to say: "Oh that Shang Ji entrance in army was still only a WIP -here is the right one, apologies folk" ;-)
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Did you... actually read the OP? Looks like you skimmed very quickly and drew assumptions. I intentionally eliminated all SWC profiles for this exact reason.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I did, I didn't necessarily disagree with what you were suggesting, just commenting on TacSense. Although I don't think that the profiles will be changed, given they've just been given the stamp of Sectoral release.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing, I don't claim that the Shang-Ji profile is in any way bad or weak. I claim that it's not worth their points. Imaginably slotting in a Zuyong instead of the Shang-Ji profile doesn't really do it justice, since you'll also have to account for what you'd have done with the extra Zhencha you could have afforded if you'd gone for the Zuyong option instead.

    I don't think so either, and clearly they didn't read (or at least didn't agree with) the numerous feedback threads on Shang-Ji in the past years.
     
  15. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

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    And I never said that you claimed they were bad or weak. I did say (although not directly.) That they are worth their points.

    In an army with low models providing high orders. Individual model survivability is a big deal. You know this, I know this. Anyone with a brain knows this. Stats that can keep models alive, even outside of FtF rolls is a thing and important in this sectorial. And this sectorial is built to take hits and tough it out. It's just that members of the community have gotten it into their heads that high ARM sucks. (Unrelated to our debate personally but seen in the view of many others here.)

    I wouldn't be surprised if this is a sectorial meant to open the community's eyes on the value of tanking hits.

    And in regard to the Zencha instead with left over points. That's fine and a good, valid point. And definitely a consideration. And something that you should take into account with list building and army strategy in regard to the mission. But if you didn't need that extra Zencha, you're at 10 orders with 10 to 15 points left over. Upgrade!

    P.S I'm really enjoying the play with a Shang Ji haris back with a zanshi core with Hai Dao sniper. And Zencha's and Liu Xing to fill out with remotes.

    The only real complaint I have is why I would ever not use LtLvl2?
     
  16. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Strongly disagree.

    It is true that individual survivability is important, especially in a low model count list/sectorial, but the Shang Ji doesn't provide enough additional survivability over a Zuyong to justify the price difference.

    Further, while individual resilience is important, having a list that functions well is just as important - if individual survivability were the only measure then we'd be best served taking only Mowangs, Hac Tao, Daoyings and Zhencha, as they're our toughest units (high ARM/W, Marker States, relatively good value for resilience).

    Shang Ji aren't head and shoulders better than Zuyong, but they cost substantially more for their marginal stat increases and lacklustre weaponry.

    Yes, it is, but resilience alone isn't enough. A list/sectorial needs to be able to dish out enough hits to level the inevitable attrition - thankfully, we have the capacity to do that through the Zuyong, Mowang, Hac Tao, etc. The Shang Ji rarely ever going to be the tipping point of that, as the cost of its resilience and hitting power is too high.

    High ARM doesn't suck: the exorbitant price tag attached to it does.

    The sectorial might, but the Shang Ji won't be the one doing it. The Hac Tao and Mowang will be the ones that will be showcasing that, and the humble Zuyong will be showing it off better than a Wildcard-ed Shang Ji.

    Talks about tanking hits; takes the lightest units in the sectorial :joy:
     
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  17. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    There's no reason they can't be changed since we are in living rules mode.
     
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  18. HouseOfKings

    HouseOfKings Active Member

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    The next time IA gets to see a design committee, it will be because they're about to get living game'd as CB discontinues production on them.
     
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  19. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

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    @Kallas Everything is of course your opinion. And i have mine. I have no intention about changing your mind and I have no intention about changing mine unless further playtesting on my part does change my opinion. My millage varies to yours. Agree to disagree and move on.

    However, on one specific point that you misinterpreted.
    Notice how i said that core in relation to a Shang Ji haris. Cause i wasn't fitting a Zuyong core in with that. And i was fighting OSS where i used a defensive firebase with a tough, aggressive haris combined with a reasonable midfield presence.

    So please don't take my point out of context. I won't do that to you. And if i do, you should let me know as it's easy to talk past people on the internet.
     
  20. Alphz

    Alphz Well-Known Member

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    They sound have given the Shang bioimmunity so we could use that bts to lol at all the shock they brought to kill our zhencha!!