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Dealing with Achilles (mostly HB)

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Cannon Fodder, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    Achilles is my bane. I just can't deal with him in HB. Every time I go against him in a tournaments he rambos my entire list. Admittedly the last few times I lost initiative, but I'm still looking over the HB options and don't see a counter.

    Usual counter for ODD are:
    • Direct fire templates which would remove the ODD, but HB doesn't have access to. HB has a HRL but that means shooting into the ODD to remove it.
    • MSV2... The closest HB has is MSV1 on the govads. But even with that the odds are not great, and a decent player will not let you get optimal range bands on him.
    Jammers \ Hackers: Are an option as long as you opponent doesn't use stealth while in range (Granted from MA).

    CC: His CC and MA are better than HBs best assassin. At best we can surprise attack him. But his W3 means it won't kill him in 1 attack, and the subsequent ones are against the odds with a very fragile attacker.

    Lots of AROS: I find he just walks threw them, with 6-4 Mov he isn't even slowed down that much.

    Is our best option to hope for initiative, spend 3/4 of our orders moving a fireteam into range. Then just dice him hoping we do enough before we run out of orders. If we fail, we leaving the bulk of our force in easy range of him. It seams a little futile.

    I don't see a way of competing against a list with him in any sort of killy scenario. Is there an option I'm missing?
     
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  2. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    E Maulers and E Marats are your friend.
    Cover your DZ with Repeaters and AHD Barid...he has to break Stealth if he wants to shoot something, thats when you can jam and hack him.
    But even just wih Ghazi and E Maulers from your Muyib, you should be safe against an Alpha Strike.
     
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  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    • Use a Coordinated Order to shoot him in Active Turn - he can not split his burst in ARO, so 3 shots will not be F2F.
    • At least one AHD on a roof near his path.
    • Melee him not with just one trooper, but with many. The increased burst might win you this roll.
    • Place lots of mines/emauler to slow him down.
     
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  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Mukhtar red fury shooting through smoke has an excellent F2F against him, especially if frenzy is already popped.
     
  5. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    Mukhtars is Hassassins that I didn't know about?

    I usually run trade lists with lots of Daylami and Ghazi, and SP was always a real problem, especially as they don't normally have an easy to destroy order pool. If they ever did the rambo Achilles, I'd usually counter by ending my active turn with two Ghazi by him, one in e-marat range, one in template range. If I was lucky, I'd also have a camo Daylami panzerfaust watching him as well. They have to eat 1 or 2 normal rolls, any of which can end the rambo, or move something else up to try to take them out. They could always luck out and just save all their rolls though, which has happened.
     
    #5 Balewolf, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  6. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    4 Ghazi's around your deployment Zone, Barid AHD, Fanous and Rafiq spread around your deployment Area, minelayer Farzans, and Minelayer (APMines/Emarats) with E/Marats deployed). You want him to break stealth to attack things and then get hit by the jammers/hackers.

    Also Daylami making it difficult for him to get out of his deployment efficiently is good. A light shotgun is rough even for achilles.

    The biggest issue HB has is when facing heavy armor. They really rely on thos asymetric trades, but Achilles is a tough case as usually he has good phys and can dodge those templates. As such you need to try some coordinated orders at range, or baiting him out of Stealth.
     
  7. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    Just to give you guys some context from last game. The scenario was Decapitation(with spec ops - muyib Doc plus, Jammer, minelayer, HP), I was playing playing most of the suggestions here except the AHD, and had AP mines instead of e/mauler. My opponent deployed first playing steel phalanx links mostly to one side. I deploy my LT prone on a rooftop with 2 mines (mine-layers) and 3 jammers circling my LT. 2/3 daylami (panzerfaust) fail deployment, and deploy opposite side since it was less defended and not in direct LOS of opponent. Opponent deploys Achilles on opposite side of Lt. The main bulk of my force are muyibs and asawira (3man core & haris for 2 fighting groups which can merge if needed). The are deployed in the across the center of my DZ. Achilles goes first and easily walks threw all AROS from daylami, usually able to get 1 aro at a time. Moves up and complete a classified on the way. Circle the edge of my DZ and takes out a 2 ghazi on the Lt side of table.followed by splitting attack on 2 muyibs in my harris killing both, then an asawira. The closer link was out of LOS. As he's doing that I reveal my Spec of and get a un-expected jammer, but fail. Then he just walks out of range with stealth, and circles a smaller piece of terrain and get LOS on my jammer, My Asawira spitfire gets LOS at this time and all shot bounce, and he engages him..

    My turn, By now I don't even have 3 models for a new fireteam, I run up a ghaziin a waste a couple orders trying to jam him, but fail. I'm order starved and can't do much.

    His turn he CC's my Asawira and then the rest of his force walks in and takes out LT. I play out the rest of the game but its down hill.

    In response to your suggestions.
    • There never was a chance to get Coordinated order.
    • He can stealth past most repeaters. With 6-4 move my opponent will move past the hacking area and only shoot once past them.
    • I find daylami don't slow him down at all. His 4B, BS15 (+3), vs is B1, BS11 (+3/6 with -6 from ODD) is not even a match on his turn.
    I'll look at replacing my mines with e\maulers, which may have a chance since 1 hit may isolate him. If I think he's how up I'll try and place a repeater so it covers a corner he will shoot from, but the local Achilles player will usually avoid those areas.

    1 part of my annoyance has been that the last 3 games against him I've lost initiative which makes it really hard stop him.
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    4 CR Muttas...
    Try to smoke dodge (for multiple AROs when he leaves the smoke, incl. CR) - or chain rifle his 4 dice, just for a try...
    Wear him down in orders and wounds as fast as possible.
    Then add some juicy mines to the menu,
    and welcome your inevitable guest...
     
  9. Fearbox

    Fearbox Active Member

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    It sounds like it may be your deployment as well, layering your defense so that Achilles has to expose himself to do anything. Also 5 man links are much more problematic especially with a rocket launcher. Also E maulers are golden.
     
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  10. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    Post game my opponent said his tactic was to deploy his army one sided specifically to make me put my defenses to counter it, then Achilles on the opposite side to hit the weak side. Which I fell for.

    As for the 5 man link vs 2x3 man links, I usually use a 5 man link, but wanted to play something a little different. I liked the idea of a pincer attack, I've heard others try it with luck and I wanted to give it a shot. Sometime I find a 5 man link pushing forward hits a bottle neck and has problem going past. With 2 fire teams 1 link can probably get to the same spot, then the second link can move up clearing the bottle neck from a different angle.
     
  11. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    In general I think there are several effective ways to deal with Big A:
    1) Smoke. Lacking MSV2 laying down smoke is pretty effective against the fairest of all heroes. Indeed, he can waltz BtB and finish your troopers off in CC but this is pretty order-intensive.
    2) Cheerleader-blood-bath. You go for the squishy order-generators. In case you go first, that's relatively easy. If you go secound, that is not that easy, to say the least. A Ragik will make short work of them REMs and Thoras and the like.
    3) Big boys stay home. To run Achilles effectively, you go big game hunting. That is rather complicated if your opponent presents you no big game to hunt. Hiding them is nigh impossible. But if you field a truckload of Ghulams, Daylamis, Mutts and the like, your enemy will have simply not enough orders to deal with them all.
    4) Go all in. Once Achilles goes down the game is half won by you. Shoot him with whatever you can. OK the odds are against you, but a Ghulam cost you 12 points (You fielded a truckload of them, right?), whilst Achilles cost him 70+ points. You can always fish for crits. Just go fishing for them.
    5) Mines. Mines do not care for ODD and the like. High armor and three wounds are nice but sooner or later even Big A will run out of juice.
    6) Camo up! Let your opponent waste orders revealing your camo markers. (HB is not that good at this…) A 10 order pool is a lot (unless you go secound and deduct two), but not if you have to waste orders on discovers.
    +1) Hack. AHD is the bane of Achilles. Barids are WIP 14 hackers with pitchers for a measly 19 points and HB can field lots of cheap REMs with Repeaters.
    I hope, this helps.
     
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  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    No, but the thread title only said 'mostly' HB, and everyone else had already said Mutts which should really be the only tool HB needs to bank on to handle the big guy.
     
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  13. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    @Cannon Fodder , don't give up. The advices others said before: "muttas" should be enough to deal with Achilles, most of the time. But not always is effective or you can place in your deployment zone the "muttawiah" in the best place in order to maximize the jammers range and effectiveness.

    Latest year I played a lot Limited Insertion (as training for the Interplanetario) and I had to learn how to deal against achilles without the "muttas". Hassasin have tools against him, don't worry.

    If not LI extra, you have:

    1. Muttawiha, the best tool against almost anything if you don't go first.
    2. Dailamy Limited Camo. panzerfaust or not (it is really funny when you manage place a couple of camo markers and the rival think they are Dailamy Panzerfaust...

    If LI extra or as more tools if not.
    3. Muyib Minelayer antipersonne / emauler (a lot of them)
    4. Muyib HRL Linked.
    5. If extra Spec Ops, place him in a core with 5 members and choose jammer. Holoproyector can be a good choice, but too "Yasbir" playing as other "spec-ops" with jammer and others tools. The rival have to "figure" which one is the true SpecOps :)

    Against Achilles (but not only).

    Play three or four muttawiah.

    If you play only three try to place them covering all your deployment area. Every mutta can cover aprox. 16'', more or less they can protect your enterely Deployment Zone. If the approaching zones are well delimited place the muttas close there and if you can, at least two, threatening the paths. Yes Achilles has stealth, but he need to break it in order to shoot something. If you can place too some "emauler" from one muyib minelayer. If you can do this, achilles should dodge the mine (them you can "jammer" him) or move ignoring the E/M mine.

    When possible try to put some ARO pieces, like Dailamys or even "asawira spitfire" or "muyib DEP or Panzerfaust" (in link) looking into the possible ways which allow the pass into your Deployment Zone, covered by your "muttawiah". This will force Achilles try to shoot you instead do move/move Then you could do "jammer" or even "template, always E/Marat. Only when Achilles is one wound to dead you should try the "chain rifle".

    If you can do all this things and Achilles still achieves to pass beyond this deffensive line, is more a matter of "dices against" you more than any other thing. So, don't worry, you played well but the fortune didn't smiled you.

    You should always asumme playing against Achilles, your ARO pieces will be dead more soon than later. Govads ML in core could sound as a good choice to avoid Achilles comming, but only if the table is really open, else the "aleph star" will find a place to shoot your ARO ML inside the 24'' range, where you will haven't the "+3 bonus" for range weapon, making the chances to put him down really short. Yet, if you are lucky and manages one hit against him, probably he will survive because 3 wounds. In my experience, Muyibs HRL as ARO piece is more interesting against Achilles. Yes, two of them. Bot will die, but probably cost five orders to kill them and if one manage to hit Achilles he looses his DDO, making him less chewy for the rest of your lists.

    Barid Assault Hacker Device could be too a good choice against Achilles, if you place him nearest to "muttas" and "emaulers". If you can combine all this tools, it will be one moment where Achilles don't can use his stealth. All of this are "deterrent" measures.

    Confronting Achilles, specially in ARO, isn't about win the face to face rolls, it is about make him los many orders as posible with less damage to our orders pool.

    If we are lucky and go first, because Achilles can do us several damage, we will put all our effort to put him dow, trying to hack him placing repeaters (pitchers) or making a Mutta run for the table and do "jammer" Achilles. Most of the time we didn't do nothing with this.

    Going First:

    1. Hassasin have the fiday. Using surpresive attack, specially with Hussein, you can put down the CoC which every Aleph player play when use Achilles as "killer" piece. In this case, if Achilles is the Lt, he can't launch him against you as a "killer suicide rocket". If not, at least you will be killed one order to the rival and he should be more careful with his Lt.

    2. Place some troup close to achilles, maybe a Farzan, and a couple of muttas. But don't try actively jammer him. You could place too, if you have in your list, place eemaulers from your Muyib minelayer close to the path achilles should take. Let your enemy loose orders trying to avoid this "pieces". If he goes far away, he should waste more orders to shoot his targets, if he go against this "tools" in his way, sooner or later the achilles plaer fail one reset or one BLI or PB roll, so achilles will be isolated or inmobilized, loosing one of his main attack pieces and probably a good amount of orders.

    In my experience, jammers, emaulers, assault hackers, are better as ARO pieces than "active pieces".

    "Edit": Of course, if you can carry your muttas into a position where they can have LdT with Achilles in the first half order, making him choose between reset or dodge, then you can choose "jammer or emarat", is worthy try how many times as you can. Even if you can do a coordinate order with at least two muttas... Much better :)

    "Edit". A coordinate of Muyibs with D-Charges, or even now the new Farzans with D-Charges.
    Other options can be play with the profiles with holoprojector. Yasbir disguise as a Barid Assault Hacker, even an Ayar with DEP+Emitter can be give a nasty surprise to Achilles. This using the HOLO Level 1. Other options is place a couple of dailamys panzerfaust and an Ayar snipper or not as three dailamys panzerfaust. This will make loose orders to your enemy and if you are lucky one panzerfaust could do your day.

    Making shorter:

    1. Play all the nasty toys of Hassain as Jammers, Emaulers, Emarats as you can.
    2. Place the toys to do your rival spend orders in his turn. Don't try actively to use the toys wasting orders. Most of the times is useless.
    3. In active turn, attack the weakest pieces with your fiday. Speacially if you go first. Attack the support pieces: CoC, doctors... "Forget Achilles".

    Best of lucks.
     
    #13 Urobros, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  14. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Extra: Choose as your last miniature one Mutta. Not always, but sometimes is really interesting place two muttas over the same spot. Most of players don't wait a cheap impetuous as the latest figure. This breaks the "plan" inside the head of your enemy, making for him harder his first turn. Sometimes could be the latest an Ayar in "Mutta disguise", but if not you could have an Ragik Assault Hacker Device. More you play against the same people more can you play "mind games". Use it in your advantage. Try to make both list "with equivalences" if you use holoprojector in one of them so, you could be playing the list A or the List B, but truly nobody can be sure until will be too late. Not always the mission allow you to do this, but when yes is a good tool to exploit.
     
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  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    A reminder that Ghulam DepRep exists and also carries E/Maulers. So it's not just 24 pts Muyib minelayer that has them.

    Ofc those won't help you without you getting a turn and setting them up first, but then you have Ghazis.
     
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  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Right, is too a good option. I think always first in Muyibs because they have "minelayer" when trying to deploy defensive.
     
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  17. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Fiday Minelayer is GREAT vs. Steel Phalanx. Drop a mine behind a corner where the CoC is, then pop around and use the light shotgun.
     
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  18. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    You made me check the army builder to see if we suddenly got a minelayer like the Speculo, but we didn't...
     
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  19. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Probably he refers to the profile with mines. Which is a great profile (more desirable than the others except for those scenarios where we have to broke something with antimaterial), but still a little unefective against Achilles. An antipersonne mine will not stop the "blond hero" of Aleph :)

    And yes, mines do damage to the aleph players, but against ddo we have a problem, the fiday shoots to 11 and the enemy probably shoots the same or better, or has a Chainrifle, whats do the "fiday last order". In my experience against troups with some kind of penalties to CD and direct template weapons, is better left the mine and go away, reenter in impersonate state, then will be the rival which loses orders trying to put away the mine and triying to discover the impersonator. I will try to do this tactis only if I can reach the enemy's back.
     
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  20. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    Generally it sounds like you have to hide your mainline troops more. Put them somewhere terribly inconvenient even if it means that it’s difficult for themselves to move out later. The opposing Rambo should only be shooting ghazis and clearing out camo tokens 1 by 1 on the first turn.

    If you’re on active and spending orders on ghazis, I personally prefer to try to lay templates rather than to jam.
     
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