Discussion in 'News' started by toadchild, Dec 5, 2017.
The 40mm holoechoes are now up.
By any chance you could make some generic "buff" and "debuff" tokens? like, I don't know, a green thumbs up and red exclamation mark in a triangle or something akin to that. my idea behind this request is pretty simple - you can't be prepared for every outcome of the game, so you either gonna run short on some markers, like, isolated, or you have to bring a huge token organizer to have exact token for the exact scenario in necessary quantities.
That's an interesting idea. Let me think on it.
While @toadchild figures out the ideal way to add the Booty and Metachemistry tokens to the creator (it's a bit tricky since these tokens will always come in groups, which goes against the inherent customizability of the creator) here's a couple pdfs I whipped up. I'd appreciate if someone could put another set of eyes on them to make sure they're accurate.
300 DPI version
600 DPI version (if your home printer or print shop can handle this resolution, it will make a difference in the crispness of the tokens)
These are formatted for A4, but since the tokens are centered on the page and don't run all the way from the top to bottom, they should print on US "Letter" size paper without a problem as long as no additional scale-to-fit is enforced.
These are 1 size (25mm/1") but you should be able to set them to print at different sizes scaling the document before printing. To do this, divide your desired size of token by the original size. If, for example, you want 15mm tokens, 15 / 25 = .6, which means you'd scale this to 60% size before printing.
No one seems to care about them, but what do you think of "symbio mate/bomb" markers? Total immunity, arm/bts 9 on "mate" and...well, "bomb" is a bit trickier I guess.
I also noticed that "inactive symbiont armour" marker is missing. Though I am not sure it is needed in N4.
In N4 the inactive symbiont marker is replaced with a generic transmuted marker.
Have you considered replacing generic icon in the middle to represent the buff given by Booty/Metachemistry?
My main thought behind this is that the words will be hard to read on 15mm tokens, but I see that might be crossing the overall aesthetic.
Also I would suggest getting in there bonuses that don't crossmatch Panoply tables with Booty table:
TAG: Immunity (AP) on 12s
TAG: BS Attack (Shock) on 16s
TAG: Immunity (Total) on 18s
TAG: BS Attack (+1B) on 20s
Other bonuses are shared with Booty chart.
I think I mentioned somewhere in the thread that because it would require a very extensive amount of illustration design for tokens that I don't personally use at all (and because there are 3rd party options that already have symbols on them representing the effect, for better or worse from a graphical/design sense) I'm not planning on doing custom artwork per-token on them in the near future - there are some bonuses in particular that I think just don't translate well to icon form regardless, but it's too much work for the time being and so I was either not going to make the tokens at all or make them like this :-)
For the second part, just to be clear you're suggesting Panoply versions of the tokens for the above numbers based on "Firefight" and "Looting & Sabotaging" missions in the ITS book, yes? That's something that may be do-able.
So here's an idea I was kind-of kicking around.
One problem I've run into, particularly with fireteams of basic line infantry (e.g. Zhanshi, Line Kazaks, Fusiliers, etc.) is keeping track of who has what equipment. While they do make packs with alternate sculpts so you can generally match a weapon to a particular figure, they don't actually cover ALL the options. For example - there's no Zhanshi that is clearly a Forward Observer, nor is there a sculpt that carries a grenade launcher.
I have some go-to picks (I always try to pick a figure who is pointing to be my FO, for example) to ensure I don't get mixed up, though I've still tripped myself up occasionally, particularly when working with units like my Line Kazaks, for which I only own the TAK Army pack that has all Rifle-equipped figures and not the special weapons versions.
I put together this little set of tokens (15mm) that could be used as reminder/reference.
A couple of notes on these:
1) I specifically chose contemporary weapon silhouettes rather than Infinity weapons, partly because many of the N4 weapons have very similar silhouettes to one another (futuristic) and partly because factions tend to have different weapon designs, so it made sense to not play favorites and instead go with generically understandable silhouettes
2) These tokens are intentionally textless. The idea is that, because these are just a memory aid, there is no need to be specific about exactly what weapon we're representing - all I'd usually need to know is that I'm running a shotgun-carrying version of a particular trooper, for example, but not whether it has a boarding shotgun, light shotgun, or whatever (that's what my army list is for). Likewise, the Machinegun silhouette could denote an HMG or a Spitfire. Individually texting things for every possible weapon would just explode the number of tokens that would need to be created.
3) The three tokens in the upper right represent Forward Observer, Hacker, and Paramedic respectively.
Thoughts on this? Without over-doing it in terms of creating MANY MANY tokens, are there any other weapon platforms that it would be worth trying to incorporate that would help as reminders?
Aesthetically, I'd suggest having all the weapons point in the same direction (just mirror flip them).
As for icons themselves:
The shotgun seems a little difficult to read to me.
Panzerfaust is OK, although I believe an RPG-7 would be more easily recognizable than the actual Panzerfaust 3.
the missile launcher is not OK. Too much fine detail, not to metnion the FIM-92 Stinger is an anti-air weapon. Maybe try switching it for something like Carl Gustav?
I'm not convinced that M249 SAW will be easy to read enough at a glance. Also, is it meant to represent a HMG, Spitfire or Red Fury...? Or all 3 of them?
There are 4 scoped long guns: I take that upper row, starting on the left are sniper rifle and marksman rifle, but then what are the two in the bottom row meant to represent then...?
If you ask me to make the list of representable weapons, it would be similar to yours, but not exactly the same:
precision rifle (to represent sniper rifles, marksman rifles etc). There don't seem to be many cases of troops in a single unit being armed with more than one type.
squad automatic weapon (representing HMGs, Spitfires and Red Fury)
basic rifle (use one without any fancy attachements, and possibly differing from the other rifle-like weapons on the markers from the very first glance)
panzerfaust (represetning any disposable projectile launchers - panzerfausts, blitzens, flammenspeers, DEPs etc)
missile / rocket launcher
naturally all the specialists (FO, medic, hacker, perhaps Engineer too)
I'd add deployables to mar the model carrying mines / repeaters etc.
Engineer is a good call.
Mostly just a test of whether this stuff is even legible for now. The biggest problem with most guns is that they have a very long thin silhouette which makes them not a good use of space on circular tokens. It's hard to tell how legible these would be on a tabletop but I'm hoping that simply having them will be better than nothing.
Shotgun is difficult to read, yes (not really any more to me than any of the other guns, but that's why I put this out there for second opionions) - a traditional SG with a stock became even smaller and harder to see, but I could go for maybe an old fashioned hunting shotgun instead. I actually varied the direction of some of the guns because I felt that it might make them easier to differentiate than if they were all facing the same direction. The prepondrance of scoped guns is sort-of incidental - wanted to see if there was a reaction to anything in particular. Realistically I figured you'd likely need only one gun to represent a sniper rifle or marksman rifle but maybe if there were a handful of options people could just gravitate towards what they liked. I'd originally thrown in another shotgun and another type of grenade launcher (M79) for the same reason.
Intentionally picked the Stinger instead of something like the Gustav because I felt the former had a more distinctive silhouette less likely to be mistaken for a Panzerfaust, but I can try it. Really there's nothing in reality quite like the missile launchers carried in N4. I could try something like an M202 - it has a distinctive silhouette, even though functionally it's probably more like a Flammenspear.
Thanks for the notes - will circle back around when I have some updates.
Okay this one has some options (and adds the Engineer). Would be interested in hearing thoughts on what feels the most legible/iconic for each category, or if it's worth including all of these so people can pick their faves.
SNIPER RIFLE: tough to read because of how long these tend to be. B is my preference - C feels more like a marksman rifle to me.
GRENADE LAUNCHER: A is my preference because it has a very unique silhouette. B is iconic but feels too much like a shotgun when I squint at it.
SUBMACHINE GUN: A is most iconic to me but C feels more like how N4 imagines SMGs, since the P90 uses AP rounds.
SHOTGUN: C is my preference
HEAVY MACHINEGUN/SPITFIRE/AUTOCANNON: B feels the most like a machinegun to me but C may be the most obvious silhouette, and maybe B works better as Red Fury, Mk12, Spitfire, etc. D might work as an Autocannon if that's a necessary token.
PANZERFAUST: as Errhile said, A would be more iconic.
MISSILE LAUNCHER: I like C best even though the real weapon would be more in line with a Flammenspeer
MARKSMAN RIFLE: C is the winner for me
FORWARD OBSERVER, PARAMEDIC, HACKER, ENGINEER: I assume these are uncontroversial so I haven't provided options
RIFLE: I don't know that we need a token to denote a vanilla armament but here they are. I have no opinion on these.
Mostly going for different shapes yet "common in movies/news" so even non experts should quickly grasp what they are:
sniper: B, cos big scope. Or A, smaller but more separate scope.
grenade: hard to tell. Maybe B but open? Or by picking the right ones in the rest, B as is.
smg: C, different shape than many others. Or B, or even classic series-z movie uzi.
shotgun: B or C, cos pump style.
hmg, etc: D, for different look.
panzerfaust: A, obvious cone thingy.
ml: A, bazooka.
marksman: this one is tricky, scopes could be confused with sniper. Probably A, "plain rifle with scope".
specialist: these are the easiest of all. :P
rifle: B or a more AK47 look.
I don't see the necessity of including separate tokens for Sniper and Marksman rifles, as it is unlikely to have models from the same unit (and especially - fireteam) equipped with both at the same time. One "precision rifle" token should do.
sniper rifle: all are good, but I like A best.
SMG: A, though B is acceptable too. As much as I love P90, it is such a neither fish nor fowl I'd rather avoid it. Besides, the pictures are meant to be easily recognizable - and P90 looks cool and exotic, but not obvious to someone not well-versed in RL firearms.
Machinegun: B, definitely.
Missile: C is OK, but I'd prefer D myself. Easier to tell what it is.
Specialists: I'm not a fan of the Hacker, but I have no better ideas. The rest are spot on.
Grenade launcher: A. It works for ADHL too.
Shotgun: I like A, but you're right, might be difficult to tell apart. Therefore, C.
Panzerfaust: A seems better. Though you might also want to check the even simpler (if not as popular) RPG-2.
Marksman rifle: as I wrote above, I consider it unnecessary. But if you want to keep it, I'd go for C here.
Rifle: B. A would do, if not for that vertical foregrip.
Why do we need a plain Rifle? Because you might want models with secialist weapons to stand in for basic riflemen. the soo-to-be-released Crimson Stone starter has 3 Rokots (Kosmoflot basic line infantry) models - one with a basic rifle, but the other two carry a SMG and a shotgun...
These seem to be aimed at people who know about real-life military weapons. A lot of them are actually illegible to me.
Sniper rifle: all three are fine, because the scope is legible.
SMG: I only recognize B
HMG/etc: I don't recognize any of them
ML: I don't recognize any of them. Maybe D?
Specialists: These are all good. I would remove the hammer from the engineer and just have the wrench.
GL: A is perfect, B is illegible
Shotgun: All are good.
Panzerfaust: These would make great missile launchers, but I don't read them as Panzerfausts at all. They look neither double-shot nor disposable.
Marksman rifle: C looks enough like the Haqq MMR to work for me. In general, I don't really know what the physical difference is supposed to be between an MMR and a regular rifle, so I don't know how to represent it visually.
Rifle: B. A would work as an HMG for me.
I guess your idea was to use real-life weapons deliberately, but I don't think it works. Everyone using the tokens will be an Infinity player, but only a small fraction will have any military experience, so I'd suggest the tokens should look like Infinity weapons.
I have no idea what a P90 is. I'm with QueensGambit. I don't play FPS or paintball and have no interest in weaponry.
Sniper : agreed with QueensGambit, all 3 are good but I prefer A or B because of tripod (from what i saw on movie/tv shows they have tripods)
SMG : I agree with B, (I always assumed sub in submachine gun meant very small length ?)
HMG: I recognize C as a big nasty gun carried by powerarmor or big robot or big guy who shows the brute force by single handedly carry that monstrous gun multi-barrel machine gun.
ML/HRL: A is a bazooka? I thought the shape of C was the bazooka. And in panzerfaust section they both look like the taliban RPG (in the news or in NCIS i don't recall). So we got a Bazooka icon and a RPG icon. I have no clue which would link to a missile launcher/rocket launcher and which to a panzerfaust. In game though, Panzerfaust is what replaced the Tomcat D.E.P. and it was just a big tube.
GL: agreed A is a GL with grenade ammo drum and thick enough barrel, i have no idea what B is (an upside down western-movies rifle?).
Shotgun: agreed, all good. i prefer B as it look more the double-barrel shotgun in disney movies.
MMR: is a longer range rifle, I'd go with C as you see the scope, while not being as long barrel as the tripod sniper rifle
Rifle: B looks like a good regular rifle. But i'd go with Infinity Combi Rifle (Any human faction works, they look the same).
@QueensGambit @Robock I understand the concerns and my first instinct was in fact to use the weapons schematics that are commonly found on character art breakdowns... but I had second thoughts due to their legibility. I've mentioned the reasons why I ultimately went against that idea but here's a visual.
(that's a Nomads Combi, Shotgun, and Spitfire for the uninitiated)
This issue is that the artists (rightly) have focused on giving similar design cues and silhouettes to all weapons of a particular faction. It's good for faction homogeneity but kind-of bad for legibility of icons.
It gets even dicier with things like grenade launchers, which are simply depicted underslung on an existing rifle and would change the existing silhouette by just a few pixels.
Add to that of course the fact that each faction tends to have a bespoke design to the same set of weapons means either doing potentially a bunch of different sets to cover everyone or playing favorites with a particular faction's designs.
I'm not against continuing to try to make these work but it really felt like I'd be going down a rabbit hole.
SMG A (H&K MP5 - just don't call it that) is a general design is used extensively throughout a lot of factions for specifically SMG.
Infinity's Chain Rifle might be simple and distinct and common enough to be useful, no?
I'd suggest versions of rifles and snipers with visually distinct muzzle attachments for "heavy" version - T2, Multi and Viral where units can have more regular versions as well? (Or like how Ariadna seem to do it: foregrip on T2)
Strelok, Zenit-7, Briscards, Hundun, Kunai, Djanbazan, Ayyar, etc. There's a few.
It might be helpful to think about which loadouts people find they need to distinguish between in practice. I think it will generally be in fireteams where you have multiples of the same unit with different loadouts, all close together on the board and moving around. And it will be specifically for loadouts that don't have sculpts, or that have sculpts the player doesn't like.
For example, as an HB player I think I'd disagree with @Mahtamori 's example of the Ayyar, because a player is so unlikely to have two Ayyars in his list, or for one of them to be the sniper, or for them to be deployed close together. Whereas Djanbazans would be a good example if a QK player is likely to put the sniper and the MMR in the same fireteam - which I don't know, not being a QK player.
(Edit: Actually, Djanbazans don't need tokens because the sniper and MMR both have sculpts.)
SAA: combi vs. sensor/minelayer vs. FO vs. paramedic
HB: HD vs. KHD, Grenade launcher vs. doctor vs. hacker vs. deployables vs. panzerfaust vs. rifle
I've been working on seeing if it's possible to do different sets of weapons per-faction and I think Combined Army just broke me...
There's three different combi designs here alone. I get that we're dealing with some different alien species here but I don't think there's a way forward that accommodates all the factions.
Aside from this specific issue, the biggest issue overall is the consistency (or lack thereof) in the quality of the weapon illustrations available for the various factions. Many of them are pretty hit or miss (pun intended, I guess). Some designs (Tohaa Chaksa) look to be illustrated in a completely different style than the rest as well. Some factions, such as Nomads, don't actually have an illustration for certain weapons even though they have figures that carry them (Missile Launcher). Overall it's kind-of a mess.
I'd considered going very abstract and, similar to the specialists, coming up with icons rather than guns to represent stuff. Think explosion for grenade launcher, reticule for sniper rifle, a bunch of bullets for HMG, etc. I'm not counting this idea out yet but it does feel a bit obtuse, especially since generic icons wouldn't work well for things like SMG, regular combi rifle, multi rifle, etc.
This is an example of what a loadout of weapons would look like if it was, say, PanO only. Some stuff is still missing but you get the idea.
The upside with PanO is that the silhouettes on their weapons are reasonably distinctive. The 'custom' fields above are here represented by a Spitfire and Multi Rifle - the original idea was that each faction might have particular go-to weapons in these fields.