1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Crits and New Symbiomates

Discussion in 'Rules' started by DukeofEarl, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    1,066
    How should Crits affect the new Symbiomate rule. Previously there was an exception clause built right into it, but now there is some grey area in how to read
    and
    Is it 1 (successful Attack) or (being affected by ((any weapon) or (rule) that forces and ARM or BTS Roll);
    or 2 (successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule) that forces and ARM or BTS Roll?

    Each reading gives a different interaction with Crits. 1 would read that a crit, as a successful attack, would trigger the cancellation of the Mate, while 2 would require that you have to make an ARM or BTS roll in order for the cancellation to trigger, meaning Crits (at least provided the Symbiont Armor isn't removed) would not cancel the Mate allowing it to stay in play.

    Unfortunately both the examples include regular successes and crits, so they aren't exactly any help.
     
    Urobros likes this.
  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    You're quoting the wiki. For whatever reason, it's missing punctuation.

    A SymbioMate provides its user in the Active Symbiont Armor state an ARM and BTS value of 9—replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user’s Troop Profile—and it also provides the Total Immunity Special Skill.​

    When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a Symbio Mate suffers a successful Attack—or is affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks—or weapon or rule—requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill.​
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  3. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    724
    Yeah, but we have a problem with critical hits with special ammo like DA or Explosive.

    What happens in this case? If we read carefully we can asumme that a critical hit with normal ammo don't trigger the symbiomate, but... against DA or Explosive, the first wound don't trigger the symbiomate because "crit", so no "total inmunity", but them we have to do rolls from the DA or Explosive. The Symbiomate will be activate because is a rule which provokes rolls, but them we have Total Inmunituy, so DA or Explosive ammo don't have effect... What comes first?
     
  4. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    When you are hit by a critical hit, you will suffer the wound but you still have total immunity, therefore you can only suffer one wound from DA,EXP etc.
    That's on benefit from the rule change and it is imo intended.

    EDIT: Why should with the new rule a crit ignore the symbiomate?
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  5. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    100
    I would expect the 'successful attack' clause to mean that the mate would be used up.

    I would read it as "any hit uses the mate".
     
    Section9 likes this.
  6. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    598
    It says successful attack that forces ARM or BTS save. Crits bypass those ( sadly ) as written in the rules. So to me it looks like crits should not trigger the mate.
    DA and EXP ammo crits, symbiomate gives TI so it's not DA or EXP crit it's normal ammo crit as I see it. And like I already said, current wording would suggest that critical hits do not remove symbiomate.
     
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    5,677
    Does the "what critical bypass armour really means" needs to go in the FAQ?
     
    Omadon likes this.
  8. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    724
    SYMBIOMATE AUTOMATIC EQUIPMENT
    Deployable, Non-Lootable, Obligatory, Prior Deployment
    REQUIREMENTS
    • SymbioMates can only be assigned during the Deployment Phase, when deploying their owner.
    • A SymbioMate can only be assigned by its owner to those troopers possessing Symbiont Armor and who are present on the game table as a model (thus excluding troopers using Airborne Deployment, in Hidden Deployment or Impersonation state, etc.)
    • A trooper with Symbiont Armor cannot receive more than one SymbioMate.
    • SymbioMates can only be used while in the Active Symbiont Armor state. If this state is lost, the SymbioMate must be removed from the game table.
    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll.
    EFFECTS
    • During the Deployment Phase, a SymbioMate is assigned to a trooper possessing Symbiont Armor and is placed in base to base contact with that trooper on the game table.
    • A SymbioMate provides its user in the Active Symbiont Armor state an ARM and BTS value of 9 replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user's Troop Profile and it also provides the Total Immunity Special Skill.
    • When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack or is affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks or weapon or rule requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill.
    • This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used.
    • This piece of Equipment is not applied when facing a Hacking or Comms Attack.

    @Ben Kenobi @LaughinGod --> The troup with the Symbiomate only has Total Inm. when the "attack" force to do a roll of ARM or BTS, the critical don't do this. So, special rules ammo should be applied. Is strange, but against explosive we will do two rolls but with BTS or ARM 9 or at least one...

    I think is clear enought the problem isn't in here, is in <<The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll.>> and the critical hits with special ammo like explosive is a rule which force to do ARM or BTS roll, so we will have a nice and endless loop. We activate the symbiomate, so we have total inmunity so we don't have to do the rolls, so we have to do rolls because we haven't total inmunity...
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  9. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    That is not standing there. You have these States as long as you have the symbiomate. The next paragraph is a seperate rule.
    The two paragraphs seem redundant with different meanings, but the second only repeats a part of the first and is therefore only a part of the first one.

    Edit: otherwise they shouldn't have an armor value of 9 too
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  10. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    724
    Sorry, I just place the bold and the colour in the wrong phrase, but now I read again and probably the troup posses Total Inmunity at the beginning, so no problem, but them the second sentence is a little redundant and only adds confussion.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    5,677
    I will have to check it but IIRC the proper interaction should be by assigning the Symbiomate the model gains ARM 9 BTS 9 and Total Immunity, it keeps them until it needs to make an ARM or BTS roll (bear in mind it has Total Immunity so flash pulse would be ignored) from any non hacking or Comms attacks that use the models actual values and do not waste the Symbiot.

    I think that Criticals are considered a failed armour roll, but I really need to see that, so do not quote me on this.
     
    JoKeR, ambisinister, Henshini and 2 others like this.
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    3,965
    Was there the resulution of new Mates against Flash ?

    Does a successfull flash pulse remove mate (and tohaa unit ignore flash pulse) ?
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    For what it's worth, here's what Critical Hits with Shock say about that:

    "Q: How do Criticals with the Shock Special Ammunition work?
    A: A Critical with Shock Special Ammunition causes the target to lose 1 point directly from his Wounds/STR Attribute bypassing the usual ARM Roll."
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    5,677
    They have total Immunity so they are not affected by non lethal weapons as per total immunity rules.

    It is a wording issue, bypasses means no roll is made, but I think the intention is this to be considered a failed roll, since this interaction never happened or was needed in the game before, I do not know for sure what the conclusion of this will be.
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Fair enough. I could totally accept that it was the intention as I've always found it bizarre that a Crit Shock would send a Sophotech Unconscious but a normal Shock would outright kill her. O_o
     
  16. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    598
    Intention or not, on this matter rules are clear. Crits bypass ARM/BTS, mates require rolls, so if you want crits to remove mates ( which I have no problems with ) change the wording on either crits or mates.
     
    Urobros, Ben Kenobi and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  17. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    I realize that, when you are hit by a crit, you haven't to/are allowed to make a Guts Roll either cause you haven't failed a arm or bts roll :joy:
     
    Urobros likes this.
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    3,965
    My questions is "is mate consumed in a process of providing TI for a Flash Pulse hit instance" ?
     
  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,397
    Likes Received:
    4,879
    yes
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    5,677
    No, because the mate is consumed only when an a rule or weapon forces an ARM or BTS roll.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.