Crazy koalas questions

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1. From parsing the rules, I can see nothing stopping this.
2. No, you have to be connected to put them in Stand By. See http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Disconnected
3. Perimeter is an automatic and obligatory skill. So, they get deployed as soon as you get them.
4. No, there's nothing preventing it. Naturally, you can't declare both in the same order.

 

Note that the existing CrazyKoalas won't be Disconnected until the Coherency check at the end of the Order, but that's irrelevant anyway as it's the Baggage trooper that does the reloading, not the trooper with a Disposable item.

 

Correct, they will be in Stand By mode when the coherency check at end of order is performed and the Moran will be in Unloaded state.

 

For coherency checks is there a difference when you check for coherency between perimeter weapons/gsync/fireteams?

Also is there a different functionally between checking coherency at the 1) start of the order and 2) after the declaration of the first short order skill but before measurement?

 

I think the goal of the checking coherency after the declaration of the first short order but before measurement is to keep people from changing what their first short order might be. So, if I understand the rule right, you declare you are spending an order on a unit with koalas, then declare what the first short skill is (or the entire order skill, if appropriate), then measure coherency. This avoids saying I'm going to spend an order on my koala unit, then measuring to find out if you are still coherent with the koalas before having to decide what to do with the unit. It also avoids the appearance of measuring ranges before an order declaration. In general, this difference between coherency check at the start and coherency check after declaration of the first short order should appear the same most of the time, b/c you checked final coherency at the end of each previous order and will know you started the turn coherent. But there are always edge cases, like if, say, your trooper dodges, you might have dodged out of coherency.

 

Exactly. You have to decide what you're going to do before knowing if you're in Coherency or not.

 

Wait a second, is that really right? It only says that you automatically deploy perimeter weapons when you deploy the bearer, and you are not deploying the bearer when reloading his CKs, he is already on the table. So I always assumed you have to manually Deploy them if you reload during the game.

 

There is no skill that allows you to deploy Perimeter Weapons by spending a Short or Entire Order Skill.

Please see http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Baggage for more information.

Baggage and Perimeter Disposable weapons and pieces of Equipment
If the bearer of Baggage is in base to base contact with a friendly trooper who has used all or part of his Perimeter Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment, and spends one Short Skill of an Order, then the player can replace those reloaded weapons or pieces of Equipment in base contact with their owner.

Baggage example-3
Akinyi is a Moran Maasai Hunter armed with CrazyKoalas, Perimeter Disposable Weapons (2), who has spent one of them as he left it in Stand By Mode. If a bearer of Baggage enters in base to base contact with Akinyi and spends one Short Skill of the Order, then the Moran Maasai Hunter will get one new CrazyKoala that the player places in base to base contact with him.
However, if Akinyi had spent his two CrazyKoalas and a bearer of Baggage enters in base to base contact with Akinyi and spends one Short Skill of the Order, then Akinyi will get two CrazyKoalas.

 

It seems that the reload and connect is legal but not sure about the other.

In perimeter it states:

• When moving, the Perimeter Items must keep Coherency with their bearer. Each time the bearer declares an Order an Initial and Final Coherency Check must be performed.

So, if you move out of coherency it should be disconected at the end of that short order, that means you cannot put it in Stand By with the second order.
Is this right or am I missing something?

 

Read the bullet point again. There are only Initial and Final Coherency Checks. There isn't one done between the first Short Skill and the second.

 

I think a lot of the confusion here is driven by semantics of mixing Order and Skills. Here's the order structure from the wiki:

"In other words, the expenditure of an Order allows the activated trooper to declare one of the following combinations of Skills:

• Any one Entire Order Skill.
• Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Movement Skill.
• Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Skill (and vice versa)."

You don't have two 'short orders' per Order, you have two Short Skills (or one Entire Order Skill). Therefore, the Order is spent, then the first Skill is declared (which can be either a Short Skill or an Entire Order Skill), then you check coherency. This is the initial coherency check. After you've finished activating all the Skills for that Order, if you are still Connected, you make a final coherency check.

 

Short Skill. 1 Order, 2 Short Skills.

 

Ok, I see it now, good points guys. Suddenly my Morans are a lot better :D.
When you look it closely it's true it states order and initial and final coherency checks but there is something in this wording that i don't like. The thing that messed it for me was the "Each time the bearer declares an order..."


http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence When you activate a mini you expend an order to being able to declare one entire order skills or to declare two short skills (which is done at 2 different points durint the order expenditure sequence)

The actual wording messes with that and might be interpreted that you have to perform the coherency checks each time you declare an skill during an order, my (mis)read.

Also, is the first sentence of that bullet point a reminder of an old rule? As it is described (When moving, the Perimeter Items must keep Coherency with their bearer) it seems that you should try your best to not break coherency durning movement, and when the CK and the mini run in diametraly oposite directions you are breaking just that.


For me it seems that initially the perimeters were designed to being checked much more tightly:

• When moving, the Perimeter Items must keep Coherency with their bearer.
• Each time the bearer declares (an skill during) an Order an Initial and Final Coherency Check must be performed.

but after some rules iterations it ended more loose (coherency at order expenditure and resolution and not needed to keep coherency during movement) but the wording wasn't changed and ended in this akward midplace.
Also it's interesting to note that with the "old" ruleset it was much more hard to pull off the disconect, recharge and i suddenly have 4 crazykoalas (as you must keep coherency with the perimeters as best as you can). You would need to use big buildings or dodges to force a coherency break.

 

The timing of the checks did change slightly, but this isn't relevant - the wording is structured like this:
'You need to keep Coherency, you do this by checking at points A and B'.

 

Yep, i get it. The problem is not the timing, it's that if this works as described in this thread this rule is missleading and not up to date. I'll summarize:

Wording from http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence:

• Orders <- expend
• Skills <- declare

RAW

• So the rule as written might be easily read as:
  • "Each time the bearer declares (an skill during) an Order an Initial and Final Coherency Check must be performed." (hence, that you must check it each time you declares)
• Also this part is ignored:
  • When moving, the Perimeter Items must keep Coherency with their bearer.

From the wiki:

Perimeter Item Game Example #1:
The Moran Akinyi, a Nomad Maasai Hunter with two CrazyKoalas (a Perimeter weapon), declares a Move + Discover Order. With the first Short Skill of that Order, Akinyi will move, with his two CrazyKoalas moving and keeping Coherency with him. In the second Short Skill of the Order, Discover, the CrazyKoalas will not do anything because in the Active Turn they can only move.

So (if the answers from this thread are how this is supposed to work) this rule needs:

• More accurate wording, if the intention is checking coherency at the start and end of the order then just don't use declare! Any verb but that one can be used without creating problems. For example: Each time the bearer is activated by/expend/uses/perform an Order an Initial and Final Coherency Check must be performed.
• Remove the first sentence: When moving, the Perimeter Items must keep Coherency with their bearer.

 

There are a number of places* where the rules talk about declaring an Order, meaning the whole sequence of Skills and AROs. So the distinction you're basing your alternative reading on is one that doesn't exist.

*Notably Alert, Change Facing, Antipode and a few other places.

 

Checking that I can see that in the rules “declaring” is used for both orders and skills. My alternative reading is wrong, I know. The point I was making is why I got that wrong (because I really thought it worked as I described above when I read it the first time) and that with only avoiding the word “declare” when talking about orders you could prevent other people from making this same mistake. Check the part of the rules where it explains what is an order and how to use it. It doesn’t state that you “declare” an order (during active turn), it always says “use” and “expend” for actions and "declare" for skills. Its funny that it only uses declare for AROs, which are essentially a reactive order formed always by 1 skill which doesn't use/expend "orders" XD...

But it’s not the end of the world, there isn’t a lot of places where it creates a true problem, and knowing that "declare and order" mean just that would prevent more mistakes. No big deal here.

But what about the second part?

Can you move freely out of coherency or, if possible, you have to keep your Koalas within coherency?

Because if you must keep the koalas in coherency when moving then you shouldn’t be able to send them 15 cm away from your ZoC before putting them in Stand By, which would also prevent the 4 koalas trick.

Also, how seriously is that “must”? I mean, if your Koalas are in a place where if you move in a particular way they would disconnect, are you allowed to move in that particular way? For example, a piece of scenery prevents them from keep coherence if you run in a given direction because they would have to take a longer path.

 

You can move out of Coherency. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible* to fail a Coherency check.

EDIT - via movement.