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Crazy Koalas a little help with these self-destructive little ones

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by WillRoarke, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. WillRoarke

    WillRoarke Well-Known Member
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    Hi, I'm a Pano player since I started playing the game, but recently I played a game as nomad corregidor and I had an argument with my opponent about the Crazy Koalas, basically this was what happened.

    He play Onyx and wanted to move his Umbra Legates within the area of the Koalas but without risking the Legates, so he decided to do the following, he paid a coordinated order to move an Ikadron and the Legates, and two more pieces that did not entered in the scene of the problem. The question was that heplay e coordinated order to Move as the first action and wait for my ARO, he moved the Ikadron first within the Control Zone of the Koalas looking for them to go for it, but also moved the Legates within the CZ of the Koalas, and here the problem arose, he argued that since he had moved the Ikadron first, my Koalas had to go for the Ikadron, but since it is a coordinated order, everyone acts at the same time, so the assignment of the ARO could be to any one of them. the one that I chose as the target of the Koalas. But the truth i has never played with this ones, and the Impultion rule does not specify a case like this or the examples given in the manual or the Wiki dont talk about a case like this, where could I refer to solve this case?
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Same answer as in the Spanish forum - the Koala must declare Boost after the first Short Skill, and must declare which target. If the Legate turns out not to have been an eligible target when you get to the Resolution step then the Koala is wasted.

    See the first FAQ entry on http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteams_in_the_Active_Turn#FAQ for an equivalent situation:

    Q: An Auxilia and his Auxbot declares Move as first Short Skill of his Order. A Celestial Guard who only has LoF against Auxbot decide not to declare any ARO. With the second Short Skill, the Auxilia and Auxbot Move again, so that the Auxilia is now within the LoF with the Celestial Guard. Could the Celestial Guard declare an ARO against Auxilia now?

    A:
    No, because the Auxilia and the Auxbot generated a single ARO as they possess the G: Synchronized Special Skill. Therefore, as the Celestial Guard has decided not to declare his ARO after the first Short Skill, he has lost the ability to declare any ORA against that Order.
     
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The wording of the original post here is unclear, just to be certain... Are you saying the Ikadron moved on the first short movement skill of the coordinated order, and then the Legate moved on the second short movement skill of the coordinated order? OR that the Ikadron moved on the first short movement skill, and then the Legate moved ALSO on the first short movement skill?
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Good point. Looking at the Spanish thread again, both the Ikadron and Legate moved into range during the first Move, which makes them both targets.

    Will - the Boost ARO of the Koala isn't declared until all active troopers have finished declaring their move and being moved into position - there's no 'I move the Ikadron for the first Move and then move the Legate for the first Move' as they both get moved simultaneously.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Side note here, but...
    If I declare Boost, but the Koala is not in range, is the Koala still removed from table?
    If yes: what if I start trying to preserve my Koalas and end up failing to declare an ARO from being too cautious?
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Given that one of the trigger requirements of boost is ZOC which is 8", and the Koalas boost 10", I believe it's impossible to trigger the Koala without being in range. So it's like checking for a mine, if it's out of range it just doesn't go off.

    There's also the second requirement:

    "The enemy trooper must be in an accessible location inside the ZoC of the Perimeter Item when declaring or executing the Order."
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's neither what I asked nor how Koalas work. Once Boost is declared the Koala will move until it reaches its target, not 10". Additionally, Koalas are not like mines, they don't use trigger area mechanic so it's normal ZoC guessing game for them.
    I asked if a failed declaration (target is not in ZoC) caused to Koala to be expended.
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    The rule is a mess because boost is obligatory. Does it mean you are better off not declaring, and then checking to see if you have to declare, to get rid of the risk of wasting the Koala?
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    And I answered buddy, granted I misread the movement part assuming the super-jump rules etc limited them to their normal movement values.

    Bolded for emphasis. No legal trigger to declare boost as an ARO, no explosion because you're not allowed to declare boost in the first place.
     
    #9 Triumph, Jan 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Triumph thank you for your answer, but the reason I ask is that IJW wrote something that made me question what I assumed Boost did (which happens to be what you assert), here's what IJW wrote:
    If the Legate turns out not to have been an eligible target when you get to the Resolution step then the Koala is wasted.​

    This is what I'd like addressed. Here's the reason after I think about it; a disposable weapon is wasted if the declaration turns out illegal, because the Disposable trait depletes on declaration, not execution. Koalas are a bit different because they are mandatory to declare and they have effects which regulate their removal even if they are disposable weapons, but the rules do not regulate what happens if I guess range wrong. Thus;
    1. Does Koalas work like Panzerfausts, in that they are removed as soon as you declare the activation regardless if the declaration turns into an Idle or not?
    2. What happens if I fail to declare because I don't want to waste my Koalas in case the answer in 1 is yes?
    -> Should the answer in 1 be "no", I might as well declare Boost any time I think it is not a waste of time, meaning it should be impossible for 2 to be an issue.

    Personally, I would prefer it if Boost was changed to a Trigger Area (and preferably one that didn't care about camo state, just like mines - it isn't as horrible as it sounds for camo state troops since if it is a Trigger Area it is mandatory for me to measure it as soon as a potential target gets close which means the camo marker is able to lure out the exact radius and simply avoid it and maybe even get a good sense of what's BSG range and what's not against the Koala's controller).
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Righty-o, then I'll just wait and see if IJW thinks it's important enough to clarify and proceed as normal (i.e. over-declare Boost, just in case) :grinning:
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The way I understand and seen the koalas used til now is I move my troop, we check all other AROs, I declare if I want to shoot an anything (if I want), then I either declare dodge or another move, or we check the koala is in ZoC of the kamikaze troop. In other words, I trigger the nasties intentionally. And have and INCREDIBLY record of Dakinis dodging the buggers! XD
     
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  13. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't the ZoC be equivalent to a "trigger area" in this case for all intents and purposes, the only difference being not requiring LoS?
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah, it's about as much a Trigger Area as Smoke Grenades are a Dodge. There's a reason why people say "smoke dodge", but there's also a reason why they get a lot of other stuff wrong because of it. Since Boost is an ARO skill, it doesn't allow pre-measuring meaning it's more similar to Change Facing than AP Mine.
     
  15. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    So then the follow-up would be does the "disposable" part even apply to the koala's boost? I think the koala itself is the ammunition of a weapon, it just happens that the koala has a bunch of different ways it functions. Disposable in this context only means that once the bearer declares where the koala will be placed, if it's not legal, then the koala is wasted and not placed.

    Additionally, from Boost:
    • Once Boost is declared the Perimeter Item always reaches the target, ending its movement and detonating in base to base or Silhouette Template contact.
    • Once the Perimeter Item has detonated it must be removed from the game table.
    So the condition for it being removed is that it has to detonate, which it can only do if it reaches a target, and it can't reach a target outside of it's ZoC.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    IJW was explicitly discussing a situation where the Koala got an ARO, declared Boost but the target did not meet the Requirements. As per the rules for Expendable weapons this would expend the Koala.

    The other examples describe a situation where the Koala did not get an ARO and the controlling player said some irrelevant words. The Koala does nothing.

    Honestly, this is the only way to play. The controlling player of a Koala is only obliged to declare boost if they think they have an ARO. At the moment everybody declares boost if it as all in doubt because there's no downside: Koalas therefore boost at the first thing that enters their ZOC. Introduce a downside and it provides an incentive to be overly cautious when estimating a Koala's ZOC (because there is no downside to not declaring Boost if you didn't think that the model was in ZOC); which means that inevitably you need to deal with the situation of 'something met all the requirements for Boost but the controlling player didn't declare Boost'.

    Boost is screwy. It plays really well if you don't look too closely at it. If you look closely it's fails in many spectacular ways. I shudder every time there's a thread about it.
     
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  17. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    So soory to be a pest about this, but I cant think of any scenario where the requirements for boost are met and then something becomes an illegal target. The disposable trait definitely applies to the boost ARO and not to the bearer placing the koala? I can definitely see trying to place a koala and declaring an illegal placement, and then it is wasted.
     
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps if troop A and troop B move perilously close to boost range of a koala during a coordinated order, koala declares boost against A (as it's the more valuable target), but when measurements are done it turns out troop B was in the ZoC of the koala, but not A? Does that sound like the scenario where the koala would be wasted?
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Same as before. You check for model A, find you are not allowed to declare the ARO in the first place, then find B is in range and the Koala MUST declare Boost against it. So the Koala is used on B.
     
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