1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Cracking a Su Jian Action Unit

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Nicklz, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Nicklz

    Nicklz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    57
    I had a recent game of capture and protect against yujing imperial service with my corregidor.
    I thought i had a good defensive setup and trusted on a bandit and jaguars to do the capturing.
    He had defensive link with a spitfire crane and a celestial guard with smoke GL center and a su jian righthand. I defended the right approach with a well hidden total reaction drone with marksmanship, a 5man linked missile launcher and hacker valeria (I realized only later I could have used the pitcher to get a repeater in the approach).

    Long story short with help of the smoke GL the su jian separated link and drone and easily removed both with just 3 orders and no scratch. He skirted the hacker (realizing later that imm1 would have changed nothing even when penetrating his high BTS, even an assault hacker seems bad given he can also use fairy dust), picked up the beacon and easily walked in the own deployment zone. The stray combi shots on the way doing nothing. The rest of the game I managed to kamikaze 2 hits dropping it to nwi, but not a chance against it hiding and being protected by everything else.

    So how do you counter this thing? Its faster than anything, very decently armoured, not a rem so dodges mines and chain rifles rather well, tough to win any face to face in its active turn, hidden away in its reactive (which it can do with climbing plus and mov 8 ) can hardly be hacked (or can it ?) And with smoke in abundance can pick its fights so easily. Any suggestions?
     
  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    Stop flubbing your roles for one, 5 armor isn't that much out of cover. Go for Isolation on your AHD not IMM unless you have a followup ready, if it will be outside your hacking area so it can reset out of IMM it's only alright. Get it in CC and it is helpless, and against and HMG or Spitfire out of cover it can go down fast.

    You just need to get the Su Jian reactive, then a Bandit can use token state to CC, or a Hellcat can blast it out of cover, etc.

    The only weakness of the Su Jian is standard tactics applied well, unfortunately. Or a little luck, it sounds like it could have gone down to a hack or stray combis turn 1 if the rolls didn't work out the way they did.
     
    Masterofmelee and Errhile like this.
  3. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,000
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    Actively hunt it down, perhaps?
    Corregidor has its own share of high-mobility troops - a Sputnik (depending on how close to it you can get), a Tomcat or a Hellcat, and there's always Mr. Big Bad Wolf to hack it to pieces.

    Assault Hacker with Isolation will do fine for containing it, just as Loricus said. So will an out-of-LoS ADHL.

    Or just ignore the thing itself, and go after the Order Pool.

    Remeber: this is Corregidor. We don't get ourselves into fair duels at high noon. We do kick in the nuts, swing bricks in the face, throw sand in the eyes, stalk behing their back and go for the kidneys with a shiv. And only then, if we're still standing and they're not, we do boast and brag on how we've beaten a given son of a gun in a fair fight.
     
    Myomer, chromedog and loricus like this.
  4. Morph

    Morph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    50
    The problem here is that draining the order pool is not very effective, because Yu Jing is easily able to build up army lists of 16+ orders. To tame a Su Jian you have to trick your oponent, baiting him to take the long route (deploy cammo tokens to force him to avoid them, no one wants to suffer hacking. Things like that) and assuming that your aro pieces will not kill him in your reactive turn. That's simply not going to happen. Flash pulses are highly effective here, due to they may stun the big guy, and will no longer be a problem in that turn. Same goes for the stunning mode of the Multi Sniper. Hold on in your reactive turn as much as you can.

    Then comes your active turn. Throw everything you have to that son of a b*tch. Hacking, big guns, CC specialists (all of them combined work too). In Corregidor, this means: Bandit hacking, Missile Launchers, the HMG of the Iguana or the Mk12 of the Gecko (both Damage 16), and... Mc Murrough!
     
  5. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    Just because they can have a lot of orders doesn't mean they do. If they have a lot of stuff de-fanging them works much better, after a Su Jian they won't have too much else.
     
    xagroth and Errhile like this.
  6. Masterofmelee

    Masterofmelee Japanese Secessionist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    33
    SuJians are deadly. Couple of solutions.
    > Having a properly placed assault Hack (I typically use Camo Hackers) is was to slow them down if not stop them all together. Oblivion is the program you use against him.
    > Engage it from behind with a CC troop, then stop spending orders on that unit, and let your opponent spend orders to disengage. If desparate, even a non combat specialist can achive this. (Although not as reliably). The repeater would have helped.

    That said, SuJians will typically take some models down with it. Besided winning face to face rolls, I can't think of any other actions I would take.
     
  7. Nicklz

    Nicklz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    57
    Thanks for the advice, i am very much a noob and hope to get better with these specific examples.
    The rolls were a bit iffy this time, but since I play half of my games against this opponent I regularly suffer against the immediate action.
    I think I'll try a Sputnik (pitcher + attack ) and a wildcat assault hacker next time round and see how that goes with isolated. If he stands in a repeater, is imm1 and declares a reset can I aro by hacking again? Is the roll then face to face ?
    Flash pulse worked rather well in the first round of that game, in the second Zond and warcor were gone. But I was surprised how effective that can be, it just doesn't remove models ;) .
    I also need to up my game when it comes to AD. I usually run a Tomcat engineer which in earlier games didn't do much against it and was needed elsewhere. I might need to dedicate a hellcat for it. Looks like HMG and emauler is a good combination? It probably means taking the HMG out of the core link, but I can live with that.
    I also thought about spotlight+smart missiles or lgl, anyone ever tried that?
     
    loricus likes this.
  8. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    Yes it is face to face, if you win you will cancel the reset and it will stay IMM1 without a BTS roll required.

    If you try to Isolate it if you are successful it will remain IMM1 and make a BTS roll to become isolated. Carbonite adds +3 to your roll so you are more likely to win, but won't have an additional effect.

    If something gets caught IMM1 in a repeater the typical response it to not try to brute force it out. Even if you reset you then need to move-reset again to get out, potentially wasting additional orders. You don't want to be caught IMM1 still in a hacking area, if you need to go through one try to end the order outside of their hacking range so you can reset just in case.
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,670
    Likes Received:
    4,466
    Su-Jians are horrific but have weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is hacking, especially without stealth. Another is E/M attacks. They are not particularly good in CC too. A final one is that they can't ignore surprise shot, camo, TO Camo, ODD etc. A Moira with a E/M LGL or E/Mitter is good against these guys if you can catch them on your active turn, they can't deal with the ODD using reaction fire as long as you don't get in that LFT range, and you can hit them with E/M attacks. Another one is a Morlock with an E/M CCW, get them into CC somehow using smoke etc, and they'll do a good job. Any kind of AHD that can get a hack on them will probably lock them down with Carbonite or whatever.

    Engaging them in a firefight reactively is often a bad idea unless you're a big scary link with loads of bonuses firing heavy weapons, or a Sniper shooting from half the board away and they're in the open. But a single infiltrated AHD on a building that can hack them if they go within the ZoC is very strong against them. Especially if it's a Spektr on hidden deployment. Zap them with Isolation while something else reacts, it'll ruin their day.
     
  10. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    901
    Try E/M weapons. A successful hit with this type of weapon will render the Su Jian useless due to the Isolated and IMM2 states applied.
    You get one CCW quite cheap with a Jaguar. Or you could pick Sr. Massacre who also has E/M grenades.
     
    Nicklz likes this.
  11. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    445
    Might also consider a glue gun - no shortage of those in corregidor.

    Seems like the jaguar link is the counter to su jian in general. Everything about the jaguar team presses the limited weaknesses the su jian have while being a lot cheaper.
     
  12. perseus

    perseus Angry Clown

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Messages:
    553
    Likes Received:
    332
    Bandit with adhl seems enough.
     
  13. Nicklz

    Nicklz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    57
    Right! ADHL is an interesting option, but even that is not reliable enough in ARO.
    With the bandit hunting in the active turn might be a bit easier though.

    I rarely take the big jag link , since i like spreading the smoke and i miss the FOs/specialists in that link.
    I might consider the small one with glue gun though.
     
  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,000
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    Keep in mind nothing will be reliable enough in ARO.

    Too many things your opponent might be able to maneuver around in his favour. Range, Burst, Cover, visibility conditions (smoke!).
    So I'd suggest you stop fussying about AROing it, and hit in your Active turn. Actively hunt it down, kill it and nail its hulk to a bulkhead as a trophy, then proceed disabling the rest of the opposing force. You have plentiful tools for that kind of job!
     
    colbrook likes this.
  15. Nicklz

    Nicklz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    57
    Yeah I understood now, only with mov 8 it is so freakish fast, that hunting it gets really expensive and ARO was my first go to.
    But you gave me enough ideas to try to get the most out of my next games ;)
     
  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    It'll never be easy! It's not a game of hard counters.
     
  17. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,000
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    The closest you get with "hard counter" is a Reaktion Zond TR HMG and adequate distnace (but then again you won't be able to really ocntrol that distance, and there are several good ways to get rid of a TR HMG bot), although some well-placed models in Suppression Fire covering Su Jian's route could work as well.
     
  18. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    113
    I have to believe that a Szalamandra that gets a bead on the su-jian wins that firefight.

    But at 90 points it better be scary.
     
  19. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    448
    You dont kill things in ARO in infinity.

    Your AROs delay and force the enemy to not do what he want to. You winning a ftf during that and putting something down is luck and you shouldn't depend on it.

    You *need* to take down a Su-Jian? Do it in your active turn. Also, reread that - do you *really* need to take it down? There are few times in infinity when you actually need to put something down, although him carrying the objective might be one of those times.
     
    loricus, T. Rex Pushups and xagroth like this.
  20. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,256