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Crack this list

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by n21lv, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I had a Limited Insertion game against Shasvastii today (we played Supremacy), and, oh boy, the game was a complete disaster for me. My opponent was running two Spekulo's, and I literally had no idea what to do with *two* impersonators. You can't Intuitive Attack them, you need to spend at least 3 orders (that is, if you are lucky enough to succeed with each roll) to dispose one, you can't ignore them, they don't care about Mines while moving.. and then there are quadrants to compete for, which you cannot, because you have two Bobs-from-accounting waiting for your dudes next to your DZ.

    So, all this got me thinking.. how would you crack this list in LI?
    Shasvastii Expeditionary Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10
    SHESKIIN Lieutenant Red Fury, Pulzar, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 54)
    CALIBAN Engineer Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    VICTOR MESSER (Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulser, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    GWAILO (Multispectral Visor L2) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 43)
    IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    R-DRONE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CALIBAN Engineer Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    SPECULO KILLER (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Monofilament CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 39)
    SPECULO KILLER Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW, Knife. (1 | 34)
    CALIBAN (Chain of Command) Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife, CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  2. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Impersonators can be trouble but theres some important things you want to remember when dealing with them.

    1) They're bad in the reactive turn.
    2) You can expect them.

    So Ideally you can actually just ignore them in your active turn. Literally provoke them with some minor risk plays. Remember triads are going to be clunky against shotguns so you want to try and walk past the impersonator with some individual models, if you can get your opponent to ARO to your models you've put yourself in a good spot because the Speculo itself has no vis mods.

    Lets assume your opponent won't fall for bait like that. Kaauri are reliable for this with their biovisors as well BUT they're cheap and so I wouldn't expect to have them in LI. A nice upside to this being LI On the other hand is that Synchronized troops which are readily available and efficient add a lot of value. The Rasial lets you spend one order to get two discovers on the Speculos for example.

    In the reactive turn you're going to have a harder time. Deployment will play a large role but theres actually a really simple way to put pressure on your opponent. You're going to want to save an FD2 or Infiltration Model as your final deployment. Then when they have placed their final speculo try and set the trooper somewhere ahead of the speculos and facing backwards towards your deployment zone. The goal here is to box the speculos in between your forward deployer (Draal are great for this) and your main army. This lets you force their hand in that if they try and fuss around and set up a clever play involving smoke you have LOS. If they then try and go straight for an enemy model instead you at least get to lob some discovers against them.

    Another excellent tool we've just received is the Kriigel. The ability to lob Eraser at Speculos from say the safety of a roof top is pretty good. The moment you isolate one its no longer the pressing issue for you it once was.

    Then you have the rest of the list. Even if we got the Courtesy list we can tell that most of his points are revealed on the table/speculos once deployment is over. I'd count ~250pts across 8 models. So personally I would have guessed that there was a Shrouded and a Caliban. This is good because it means if you're going first you can try and aggressively remove his key non speculo attackers (the Gwailo and Sheskin). The Gwailo is simple enough to deal with hes a beef cake with a decent gun but nothing crazy. Mirrorball will of course pay dividends in this specific scenario.

    Sheskin can be a trickier beast, Shes got better shooting stats and a decent CC. I'm sure you understand the general tactics to fighting her but consider trying to go over the top of her. The Igao will out perform her in melee. Here he is on the surprise attack.

    upload_2019-9-12_17-55-41.png
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I'd add that while a speculo doesn't care about mines while moving, she still can't move over/through your Camo markers any more than she can your normal models. Reserve dropping a libertos (or clipsos minelayer) can literally pin a speculo against a wall or into into a corner for a very low cost.

    Also, you nominally only need two orders to kill a speculo if everything goes right (discover, then discover+shoot) but punching through that first layer of impersonation is something that's often not worth the trouble.
     
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  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I would just play an uncrackable list back.

    You can just put so many wounds down on the table that the Speculo can't actually do anything without getting punished for it really hard reactively. 18-20 wounds and 4 mates can force your opponent to rely on the Speculo's CC skills, which means it can't actually CC without knowing it will 100% be dead. The pricing of Tohaa units that show up in LI lists (Sukeuls, Gao-Raels, Sakiels, Draal, the odd Ectros/Neema) all make Speculos feel like they're trading down. This means they generally can't commit to BS Weapons in ARO unless they and another unit have LoF to you because they'll immediately be punished for it, and committing to a CC attack means they know they will be 100% dead.
     
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  5. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Two Discovers don't help here -- you would still only get one Impersonation layer off at a time. Moreover, most of the time Discovering Speculo doesn't really pay off, as she can usually reach her targets in 2 orders of movement, and by that time even if you Discover her, she's already in BtB with someone.

    I wouldn't also say they are weak in Reactive turn. You can't really ignore an enemy troop in your DZ and have your backs turned to them, because of you do, they will come for you in their Active turn.

    Surprise Attack with Igao? You must first either Discover the Speculo or have an opponent who leaves a live Impersonator without Marker state in your half. The first is order-intensive, the second is underestimating your opponent.

    Kriigel is good, but again -- you can't do anything to an Impersonation marker, and when they reach one of your troops, Eraser won't help much, as you're almost guaranteed to lose a troop. In addition to that, I wouldn't expect my opponent to be stupid enough to target someone in the ZoC of my Kriigel.
     
    #5 n21lv, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The example given with the Igao is of a way to kill Sheshkiin.
     
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  7. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    My bad, guess it's time to attend reading classes again.
     
  8. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    You only peel off one layer at a time but your chances per order of peeling off that layer go up dramatically. Your goal with forward deployers is mostly to minimize damage by preventing any smoke shenanigans from happening freely.




    Speculos or Fidays themselves have very poor stats for their points cost. While it can be stressful to leave them behind some of your troops they should rarely come out of Impersonation on your turn. Which means if you can ignore them to do more damage to your opponent then you can still come out ahead. I will note Im not advocating that you just walk past them and leave them in your back arc.

    But the goal here is to try and pin them in from more angles, and to try and bait an ARO Out of your opponent. Take a unit you dont mind risking and put it in a situation where it might fight the speculo and another small piece at once and see if your opponent makes the jump. The moment they make that decision to shoot at you is the moment you've pulled an advantage against them.

    If you can protect a few key models solely by a Kriigels presence I'd still call that a win. The goal here is to make your opponent's choices harder. If they're pinned in between your Forward Deployer and your back line, and they're trying to avoid the Krigel you can push them into targets where you're minimizing damage. If you can get to the point where you're trading even or up on a Speculo (not too hard) then you're putting yourself in a good position.
     
  9. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Except you can't declare two discovers against the same marker in the same order after the 7/11/19 FAQ

     
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  10. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Oh interesting point. In my head thats one model can't go "Discover + Discover" but I think you're right.
     
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  11. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Oops missed you were talking about a G:Synch. They should be fine as you only Declare it once, they just both enact that declaration.
     
  12. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Hmm I'm not sure to be completely honest. It looks to me like it would cover stuff like synchronized/g:servant even coordinated orders as well.
     
  13. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Hmm you might be correct. Possibly worth bringing up for further clarification as it also seems to stop Coordinated Discovers.

    "The Controller and the G: Synchronized trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target."

    "In a Coordinated Order, all participants must declare the same sequence of Skills, but can perform the same Skills differently.... "
     
  14. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I reached out to the FAQ Warcors to see if they can elaborate. We'll see what they say :)
     
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  15. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I'm pretty sure the FAQ was about Discover + Discover in one Order by the same unit.
     
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  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but as written it could cause problems
     
  17. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    As if half of the existing rules don't =D
     
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