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Coup de Grace - or - Where's the Update Guide?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by wes-o-matic, May 31, 2020.

  1. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Has anyone compiled a document that compares specific differences between C1 and N3 yet, besides stuff that's just flat-out omitted?

    I ask because a few days ago I played a C1 game with a friend (outside, under a canopy, with masks and gloves; pandemics suck but at least I'm not in an ICU) and we thought there was no Coup de Grace in C1 because we're used to it being a Common Skill...but today I realized it's now nested in the CC Attack skill as a special case of CC Attack vs. an Unconscious target, and I missed it tucked in there at the end of the CC Attack rule box on page 48.

    It'd sure be nice to have a list of that kind of thing all in one place. If nobody else has made a reference document for that—as opposed to a video or podcast, which make terrible reference documents—I might start compiling one.

    Any tips or suggestions?
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think there's too numerous amount of changes that you'd probably have had a harder time finding it in the changes than you did reading through the rules like you did.
     
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I believe @ijw is working on one alongside the C1 Wiki
     
  4. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    For what it's worth, I think it makes more sense as a subrule on CC Attack, but I can see how that was confusing.
     
  5. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I found another one! There's no longer any requirement that you have a hacker or TAG in order to unlock having REMs in your list. Not taking hackers seems like a missed opportunity, but you can technically do it.

    I wonder if this change will persist into N4; I'm assuming it will given that the full N4 rules are supposed to be like a bolt-on extension of C1 rather than overriding its rules, but since this is an omission (like Loss of Lieutenant or Guts rolls) it might well make an appearance.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you're starting to compile a list, here's a few (I'll reiterate some that's already in this thread, hope that's okay);
    • Max 1 Combat Group.
    • All points have had the last digit removed. 30 points is equal to N3 300 points.
    • Most expensive units are comparatively cheaper
    • Negative MODs are exclusively applied to the opposing Trooper, positive MODs exclusively applied to the owning Trooper. Please note that this does not apply to circumstantial MODs (see: Dodge)!
    • Cover is granted by any amount of silhouette being obscured
    • Cover is not granted to equipment, only to troopers
    • Units seem to receive cover from the scenery they are standing on, if they are in an elevated position compared to the origin of an attack
    • Loss of Lieutenant is not a thing
    • Guts Rolls are not a thing
    • The Fury group of rules are not a thing
    • Falling and Fall Damage is not a thing
    • When Jumping, the trooper has to pick a spot inside the movement range to land
    • After declaring a movement, the player may measure out where the trooper can move to before declaring final position
    • Movement can be done through passages half the silhouettes width or height. Squeek through.
    • Movement can be done over terrain with holes in it, such over as corner-to-corner boxes
    • Prone halves all movement, including Dodge movement.
    • Change Facing merged with Dodge. Dodge can now be declared as ZoC ARO at a penalty of -3
    • Dodge in active turn can be used to move.
    • Engage merged with Dodge, but is no longer "magnetic". Dodge can now be used to move into close combat.
    • Cancelled Unconscious makes the trooper stand up regardless of if they were prone before entering Unconscious
    • Prone Troopers are now SX, so you can no longer go Prone as an S5 to get through Narrow Access Points.
    • Prone can be cancelled by any movement, not just the Move skill
    • REMs can no go Prone. No mention of Motorcycles, because those are not a thing.
    • Climb doesn't seem to have prohibitions on Climbing while Prone (Needs checking)
    • Unconscious climbing troopers are Prone, unless TAGs.
    • Criticals causes one extra ARM/BTS roll, with all appropriate DAM and other MODs from ammo.
    • IMM-1 and IMM-2 are now IMM-A and IMM-B, one which can be escaped with a Dodge-6 and the other which can be escaped with a Reset-3 respectively. One is physical immobility, the other electronic.
    • Reset requirements have been significantly cleaned up. It is now sufficient to have a valid ARO for any reason or to be an active trooper.
    • Hacking Area is explicitly the Hacker's ZoC
    • Only one type of Hacking Device
    • Only two Hacking Programs - Carbonite and Spotlight, both which can be used in ARO, neither which functions entirely the same as in N3.
    • Blast mode on Shotguns changed, is now a B2 DTW.
    • Light Shotguns now have a direct fire mode as well
    • Speculative Fire and Intuitive Attack are not a thing.
    • The old skill Alert is not a thing.
    • The new skill Alert is the old Warning, it is an automatic skill with trigger conditions instead of declaration.
    • Combat Jump and Parachutist are not levelled skills, so Combat Jump can't be downgraded
    • Combat Jump no longer disperses, instead it's an immediate failed jump
    • Combat Jump's blast template landing zone has been fully removed.
    • Martial Arts progression is smoother and progressive
    • Martial Arts levels 1, 2, 3 and 5 are now arguably stronger than before. Level 4 situationally weaker, situationally stronger.
    • Martial Arts, of course, strongly negatively affected by the new crit mechanic.
    • Ghost: Servants are now Peripheral: Servant, and are no longer Troopers.
    • Protheion is no longer a CC weapon and can be used together with other weapons
    • Regeneration and Automedikits are now used at the end of each turn without spending orders on them!
    • Surprise Attack and Surprise Shot combined and is now typically universally -3
    • Medikits are now straight PH rolls.
    • Failed Medikit rolls now kill the trooper, regardless of how many successful rolls were made.
    • Board Sizes depend on points limit and mission played
    • At 30 points there is a narrow and a wide board size.
     
  7. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I believe N4 will be an expansion of C1 rules, not a change. Nothing in N4 will contradict C1. This way, C1 would truly be a tool to learn Infinity. If not, it would be confusing.

    Fingers crossed that LoL and retreat will not be a strong feature in N4. These mechanics never did anything positive for the game.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My gut feeling says you'll be 95% correct, but there's a few that I'm not certain of. Negative MODs applying exclusively to opponents seem like a simplification not meant for N4, for example. You know, being able to make a bad version of a particular piece of equipment seems decent, particularly when knives and fisticuffs return.
     
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    LoL rewarded players for making a dedicated assassination run which would disadvantage the player in return for your investment.
    Don’t see how that’s a negative unless you’re really bad at protecting your Lt.
     
  10. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    There is so much going on in Infinity thatI don t think that option needs to be in there as well. I can hide my lieutenants, but I don t see the fun factor in paying for a model i have to hide for two rounds. Unless I also pay for CoC, which renders this gaming idea useless. If the LT hunt is successful, then the.player has a hard time getting back into the game, often just ending it prematurely which feels a bit like a waste of time to me. Setting up the table etc takes up so much time that its not much fun when the game is almost over after round 1. LoL does not ruin the game for me, but I do not see the fun factor. Plus it gets super complicated when it comes to fireteams. What is the positive that makes up for these negatives? I don t see much. The game could lose a lot of rule weight without LoL.

    Retreat is a waste of time as it forces players to count up their army points frequently. Many ITS missions do without, so it can t be that much of a loss.
     
  11. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I’d like to see Loss of Lieutenant do something more straightforward like just removing your remaining Command Tokens in N4, although arguably that would be a debuff of assassin models like the speculo and a slight debuff to Chain of Command troops. The overall question of who has enough fun with the N3 Loss of Lieutenant rule to justify including it is a valid one, though, and has me wondering what metric the CB design folks use when deciding what to keep, what to omit, and what to modify during the rules overhaul between editions.
     
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  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Negative modifiers in profiles apply to enemies, but PH-1 as the Damage on a knife would still work as it did in N3 as there's no way that could be applied to an enemy.

    We already see how you can create things like AD3 in C1/N4 by using "Combat Jump (PH=10)"
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but allowing negative MODs to apply to yourself gives them a bit more flexibility at designing stuff, so I don't think that rule will necessarily stick, or it'll get used inconsistently.

    The gist of it is that I don't think C1 will be a perfect stepping stone with only rules added on to N4. Close, but not entirely.
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    For a PH13 trooper what's the difference between "Dodge (-3 to Self)" and "Dodge=PH10" ?

    They already have a way to give penalties, but keep the consistent "negatives are always to the enemy" nomenclature.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Uh... you're really focusing on this one specific detail... we'll see how things pan out and whether which or if any of the rules are changed when going from C1 to N4.

    (As an aside, when I'm reading up on that one specific detail closer, it's actually a denotation thing. Negative MODs can happen, it just won't be written in the skill, e.g. Speculative Fire can still have a -6 MOD, but it won't be written "Speculative Fire(-6)" nor will it be written "Speculative Fire(PH=6)", it'll just be written "Speculative Fire".)
     
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Fair enough, that's your opinion then.
    That still means you can't make these kind of statements:
     
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  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    This was my point, a negative in a profile applies to an enemy, but there's nothing stopping "Spec Fire is a BS Attack with a -6 modifier" written as part of a skill or a weapon's damage being PH-X.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Okay good that you got closure. Do you have any opinion about whether all of CodeOne's rules will exist in N4 or if some might be changed?
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Being that C1 and N4 have been developed concurrently, and from what CB have said on the subject, I'd expect some rules to be expanded, but not changed.
     
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think that “changed” and “expanded” have a lot of overlap. I think that there are some basic rules will probably “change” in that they may have some additional changes and interactions added - for example MSV. That could technically all be written into the visibility zone rules, but it would be better for usability if MSV had at least a short note stating that it interacts with that system.
     
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