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Consensus on Hacking

Discussion in 'O-12' started by D_acolyte, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    Full disclosure: I am posting this in Aleph, Nomads, and O-12.

    What do people think about hackers in N4 and there use? How common is firewall in your local Meta? Do you see it as a problem or have you figured out a way around it? Which hackers do you take an in what numbers? Are hackers in links with firewall a problem for you?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So far it seems to lean in the direction of that firewalls are a necessity if you don't have Marker state - the non-hacker is the underdog in this scenario. Hackers with Firewalls only really a thing against KHD as hacking vs hacking tends to be a bad idea.

    Seeing as you're posting this in several forums, for O-12 specifically I'd argue that Firewalls isn't a big thing either way. O-12 doesn't have the level of Pitcher necessary to set up a repeater net to fully oppress the board, but has enough repeaters that their hackers seldom have to hack through their own ZoC and this affords them Firewall necessary to not be automatic prey for KHDs.
    O-12 is also quite well set up to hunt opponent hackers that stray from the DZ with a few cost-effective (enough) KHDs that also serve other roles.

    What hacking does do in "today's climate" is that it reduces the viability of fairly large number of profiles against armies with high Pitcher presence, that are just fine against armies that's on O-12's level or below in that respect. Doesn't remove viability, but it does mean that stuff like Betatroopers or Gangbusters have a harder time getting shit done as even a Gangbuster is a somewhat valuable target for a guided missile.

    This is saying nothing about Starmada as I have no experience with them.
     
    #2 Mahtamori, Sep 17, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  3. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I could hear that for a -3 firewall but what about the -6. -6 firewalls extremely undercuts most midfield hackers and almost all other hackers, taking a dasyus down an 8 and gives cover bonus to BTS. In many ways a -6 is as good as being immune to hacking especially now that hackers with few exceptions are models for offensive and disrupting use cases.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Firewall-6 is absolutely necessary where available I feel. Only heavy infantry (or TAGs?) have firewalls, and attaching them to a fireteam is a necessary tax most of the time, if CB hadn't been so carefree with assigning them to the already high-value profiles so that you get them automatically.

    For Medium and Light Infantry, not having access to tinbots is a bit of a pain. Hacking is still very dangerous to them and being exposed like some Impetuous trooper with their trousers down can easily end chances of winning a game. This isn't much of an issue against O-12, however, since O-12 does not have the repeater network to do this, but it is still a concern for hackable troopers.

    Primarily the presence of firewalls means certain sectorials can negate most of what a KHD would do, but a regular hacking device has enough stopping power that the hackable trooper will still be on the backfoot and forced to chain-reset instead of doing something meaningful.
     
  5. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but I am going to brake your post into parts, I am often not a fan of doing so as I feel it comes of nit picky. I do not mean to be but I am trying to do each part. Sorry again for this.

    Almost all HI in a link has access to tin bots. There is a remote with one that can go into a link and there is at least 1 tag with a tinbot. Though in the case of tags there are few with ECM hacking and that actually stacks with firewall from fairy dust if you use an evo hacker.


    I have had little issues with medium and light infantry vs a hacker unless they them selves where hackers. The only programs that target non hacker medium and light infantry is spotlight which is useful but currently I am one of the few that uses it in my meta. I killed Andromeda with a guided missile once when my enemy thought she was safe and hidden away waiting to start there turn and destroy my AC2.

    O-12 is not Nomads which are the king of repeater networks and kings of hacking but O-12 is no slouch. With two Team Sirius O-12 can have about 35 inches of repeater area 8 inches outside of the deployment zone. 35 is from about 1.5 inch base (it is a little more then that), and then an 8 inch radius around that point; (8X2+1.5)X2 is about 35. Also Razor would be no slouches if you would want a mid field hacker.

    My experience is the opposite to this. In my experience vs a tinbot -6, if I have a good hacker such as a dasyus (base wip 14 made effectively 8) or a danavas acting through a pitcher (base wip 15 made effectively 9) neither could do anything with hacking in aro or active turn vs a HI link with a tin bot -6 even when my enemy did not reset, I actually can not talk to much to the cover being added to bts because there was not enough then went through to build a grounded opinion of that part. This was not a one off thing, but rather been a constant experience. Enemies with a -6 can basically ignore hackers the majority of the time or kill them at there leisure if they have a KDH in such a link, which is more common in this edition.

    This has really brought into question some of the dedicated hacking platforms such as the danavas usefulness. Most tin bots cost 1 point per the -3 they imposed where a hacking device is about 5 points plus .5 swc and dedicated hacking platforms such as the danavas or cyber ghost are often mid 20 points for a model that is supposed to excel at this one thing.

    Edited because of issues with doing multiple quotes, sorry.
     
    #5 D_acolyte, Sep 17, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nomads, Combined, Hassassins, Corregidor, etc etc. Corregidor is the most toxic, but Combined often takes the cake as well.

    I actually find the hacking game to be enjoyable as long as none of the above are involved. It's a speciality tool and is really great when the game allows you to use it as such.

    I don't think that a fluke streak of bad luck is a good basis for an analysis.

    At 40% risk to getting Spotlit, 22% risk of being isolated, or 14% risk of being IMM-B per enemy hacker you simply can't ignore enemy hackers as a heavy infantry with Firewall-6 and BTS 3. Spotlight is terrible for anyone when the opponent has a missile launcher, but it's generally not a great way to use your active turn unless it's a high value target in my experience. Really good in ARO, though.

    Now, you keep repeating Aleph units, and Aleph in my opinion is much in the same boat as O-12 - good at hacking, but doesn't have the infrastructure required to make hacking completely dumb and unfun to play against. I do realise that a forward deploying hacker like a Dasyu will struggle to be effective at their job when the baseline of targets are sectorials playing heavies in links, but keep in mind that those lists (often sectorials) absolutely have to have those firewalls in order to even compete against the sectorials that do have the infrastructure.

    Now, if you don't think that a 1-in-6 or better of fully stopping a heavy infantry, REM, or TAG in ARO that tries to ignore your hacker is good enough as an order-waster ARO, then I don't know what to say.
     
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  7. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I find it strange that Hassassins are on your list. Why are they there?

    As I stated this was not a one off thing or experience but rather a consistent one.
    I stated my experience is different from yours. I am not diminishing your experience with that statement unlike your statement above. It this has been the case in all my game vs tinbot -6 and most of my games vs tinbots -3. These games total well into the double digits.

    I also do not think Aleph and O-12 are in the same boat. Aleph has better infiltrating hackers and no real start of game network with little networking options where O-12 has ok infiltrating hackers but more start of game and early game options for networking.
    Aleph is bunch of good hackers vs O-12 has hackers that can be felt in multiple places.

    As for why I keep using Aleph units it is because they are the ones I remember how to spell and I know have generally good stats. Dasyu can just as easily be a Spektr. The model and faction almost does not matter to the topic.

    What matters for the topic:
    What do people think about hackers in N4 and there use? Mahtamori: fun as long as no one better then me is there?? I am not sure on that one but it reads like that when you say fun except for these factions
    How common is firewall in your local Meta? I am guessing but sounds like Mahtamori take it a lot and others might take it
    Do you see it as a problem or have you figured out a way around it? Mahtamori think there are no problems
    Which hackers do you take and in what numbers? Mahtamori have not answered
    Are hackers in links with firewall a problem for you? Mahtamori only if they are killer

    Is that an accurate summary of you answer and opinion?
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Barid.

    I mean, if you really want to play the accusation game, then your opening post steered the questions pretty heavily towards a specific answer, which is why I couldn't answer them directly 'cause your premise seemed heavy on confirmation bias.

    The boat is big with lots of room for company. It's called Boaty McGoodSide

    Faction matters a metric fuck tonne.
    If you don't have the infrastructure to bring hacking to your opponent, you're gonna have to footslog your way there while your opponent will be able to use strategic movements of their own to evade your attempts. If you have the infastructure, you can just park your repeaters all over the map in much fewer orders. Spektr is in a very different situation from a Dasyu or Razor, particularly in sectorial.

    I'm not sure you realize just how much of a bad faith question this section of your post is. I'll try not to take it as an insult, even that is the only possible thing you could mean with it.

    Hacking is fun as long as no one is trying to play hacking heavy in the factions I listed. I've tried that in N4 tournaments and it stopped being fun about halfway through the first game for me and about halfway through my first turn for my opponent - as it turns out OCF does hacking heavy better than Hassassins, and it wasn't much better when I tried Corregidor. I've barely fired any Guided missiles and hacking oppression has won several, very unfun, games for me in N4.

    Firewalls exist wherever firewalls can exist. They are absolutely vital, and that is the problem. But you need to be mindful that you don't need tinbots for them if you can guarantee that the only repeaters in use are your own.

    I have so far learned to avoid taking hackers who don't have firewalls in lists who risks having to face the aforementioned factions, those hackers tend to have their brains fried. The last victim was non-FTO Jazz at the hands of a Barid. If the list is mostly guaranteed not to face that list of factions, I tend to take a few hackers as appropriate for the list and mission to steer what opponent heavy infantry does and to have some alternative solution to REMs. Can't really put a name to any of them, as it can be literally any kind of hacker. I do have a tendency not to pick stuff like Razor or Zhencha hacker because often the AVA, points, and demands of roles don't make sense to me.

    Hackers in links with firewall are mostly a problem for killer hackers. Specifically for killer hackers of the skirmisher inclination. That's generally speaking the intention of firewalls, though. Just a fair warning, there is a lot of nuance and details here that doesn't make this a straight forward question to answer, and I don't feel like writing an entire dissertation on the topic.

    But if you want a tiny bite sized nugget: I think the type of unit that loses the most on the whole situation are the skirmisher style hackers.
     
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  9. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    One question has it and if you want to answer it directly go for it. It was: Do you see it as a problem or have you figured out a way around it?

    You even said in your said you thought it was not a problem in your first post. Which my responce was I could see it for the -3 but what about the -6. I did not deign your experience just stated my own.

    Most factions have ways of getting hackers there outside of sectorials. Sectorials are a different bag of worms and always will be.
    Spektrs and Dasyu are not that different in this respect. same mov, cc, bs, Dasyu has a +1 ph, same wip, arm, Spektrs have a bts of 3, rules wise the Dasyu has courage and NWI over the Spektrs. Both are able to get there. Both have the same hacking device. Unless we are looking at there being an enemy hacker there which there could be then if it is a killer the Dasyu might edge out the Spektrs other wise it is the reverse. When looking at just what either can do vs a fireteam non hacker heavy infantry man though they are basically the same. Razors are lacking because they trade out a point of wip for D-charges which makes them more versatile but not as good as an example.

    Thing is that how I feel about some of your stuff as well. Take it as you will, I try to ignore it as well with the rejection of experience that I have had.

    My bad for miss understanding what you meant in these two areas.

    I tend not to be able to run hackers in links with fire wall even when I do play a sectorial.

    I agree I think skirmish hackers have a hard time in this environment. If you do want to run skirmish hackers the best way to give them firewall is with an evo hacker doing fairy dust hacker.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I mean... If we ignore the whole reason why hacking is creating a pretty heavy negative gameplay experience when running forward operating hackers or hackables... Then yeah... Hacking is fine and spektr and dasyu are on pretty even footing.

    I like playing Nomad lists (against or with) that don't (have the capacity to) spam pitchers, but when they do it saps the fun out of the game.
    But if we remove that from the equation I'd run the hell out of Dasyu HD if I could, they seem dope, and I'd have to seriously re-evaluate Zhencha. I don't think Razor HD would make the cut, their role in O-12 is a bit weird, but Sirius HD was and is an all time favourite of mine
     
  11. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I find the Razor HD all depends on how much you value hidden deployment. I tend to value it a lot but the Razor HD is sub par compared if you are looking for a hacker but if you are looking for ITS missions the additions of the D charges are nice.

    Ah if I had pitchers. I come from Aleph and though we do have 3 (Danavas, Scylla, and Thamyris) none are linkable in any sectorial and the use of 2 out of the 3 is dubious or corner case now, sum may say all 3 are that. I do like Scylla as my evo hacker in vanilla but I find her without cyber mask hard to use in Steel Phalanx (my first army) and Thamyris runs into problems of trying to hack a link team like other hackers. Danavas is not accurate enough, base bs 11, it is like saying the Cyberghosts has a pitcher where it is true I can count how often I have used it on one hand.

    I only really broke into hacking when OS came out so I can not attest too much to the negative play experience with pitchers. I rarely ran hackers in Steel or anything hackable, Scyla would make it into some lists just to cybermask and go hunting with a shotgun. Even in OS I mostly used the Danavas for White Noise, which is a great thing to have in your tool box. When N4 came out I have been making an effort to try it more and have just found the vast majority of time my hackers are expensive and doing nothing vs tinbots. To me a tinbot is a small investment causing a disproportionate amount of problems for what it counters. The -3 are not so bad where the -6 just make any investment in a non evo hacker almost a waist because they loose a lot of capability.

    Most commonly if I wanted to hack I had to use an infiltrator, drop trooper or move a repeater rem forward and that is what frames how I think about hacking. Experience frames our understanding and actions. Because Aleph only got a combat remote (Rudra) with a repeater with OS often the rem option was a no go.

    Scyla is probably one of the best options of anti hacking with trinity, ecm hacking -3 and the ability to fairy dust but at wip 13 she will not do much otherwise.

    Even now OS has no tinbot, Steel has 1 but Hector is probably not with your hacker (25 pt ekdromoi hacker is worth it because of the chain rifles and the hacking device), Starmada has 3 but I do not feel it really should use its HI or hacking.

    IF YOU ARE AN OS PLAYER BRING AN EVO HACKER UNLESS YOU RUN YADU!!! Evo hackers are so good for OS between all the support hacking abilities.

    Hence why I took 3/4 of the factions I think of as hacking faction and asked them the questions I did. I did not want to ask combine because I have seen there complaints about Kerr-Nau.... A KHD with White Noise and a linkable pitcher...

    Dasyus are dope, where is my new sculpt CB!!! One better have the boarding shotgun. Nagas are also good they loose HI, go down to mimetism -3, switch NWI for dogged, switch a nanopulser for shock mines but you save 7 points.
     
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