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Combing through CC factions

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Xince, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. Xince

    Xince Member

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    Hi guys !

    I'm a Nomad player mostly, i do enjoy a Little CC action from Time to Time (mostly in vanilla with pupniks and morlock). Though i really want to play some CC in CC oriented list, i've tried à Little SP and Haqq and JSA, those are nice but i'm wondering about what others think about CC overall.

    I like my nomads, and with Tunguska that i've been waiting it's just icing on the cake. But for those Times where i don't want to be all Nomady, i can't chose between all those options.

    I've discarded SP, i tried it and they're nice but we already have an Aleph player and SP didnot feel Good for me. I've tried haqq, but it just seemed like you can CC but clearly not a focus (though Yasbir IS nice in CC).

    Right now i feel like Caledonians with swarmy claymore look like the most different from Nomads whereas JSA looks like techy CC dude that will cut things up using shenanigans.
    And you have MO, but with that BS, it seems à Bad Idea to go cutting things up.

    So what are your thoughts on slashing things, and how are the different factions going at it ?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, there's plenty of units where CC is a bit of a noob-trap, but in general if it's got CC23+ with MA3+ and marker state it's good, if it's got smoke as well then it's excellent A++. Any faction with access to Saito has a cruise missile that will make up for it's points through slicing and dicing with very little your opponent can do about it.

    As for melee units that don't have marker state, it's either going to have to be dirt-cheap like Pupniks or have something else going for it such as being fairly cheap with two wounds like Domaru. I think with MO it's more about discouragement or targets of opportunity. It's not really a good idea sending a Kanren into melee with a Knight unless the Knight is IMM-1, and a Knight isn't guaranteed to get squashed by Saito, and then there's a few targets that are just going to be a PITA to shoot where if you're close enough stabbing is simply better (suppression Crocmen or as a solution to defensive smoke comes to mind)
     
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  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    CC is an odd one because it inhabits a strange cross-section on the table of cost/effectiveness/flexibility (with effectiveness being likelihood of success, cost being points cost, and flexibility being how often you can expect to be able to apply it, for this discussion).

    It's highly effective (CC specialists are able to beat up non-specialists with ease), low cost (CC Skills and the stat itself are inexpensive and very cheap troops are often great in CC), and generally quite inflexible (obviously must be in btb, need to get there, enemy has guns). So how to make this work? Really you need to increase viability, through smoke, infiltration, camo state, speed, durability etc, anything that means you can reliably get there and kick ass.

    TL, DR; Making CC work is not about being good at CC, it's about being able to get into CC. Therefore if you want to play CC heavy, consider which factions will allow you to do that. JSA is very good at it. Hassassins too, because Impersonation. Ariadna can be; lots of smoke, but beware MSV2, etc.

    Steel Phalanx are also really good at it because they have fast, CC capable troops with ODD and Eclipse Grenades, basically the dream for anyone without superior infiltration or Impersonation.
     
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to disagree that to be a specialist you need CC 23 MA3+ etc though. Taskmasters have CC 19 with MA1 and a DACCW and I've killed loads of stuff in CC with them.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's not the measurement I made, it's not binary, but I'd put roughly Ninja as the bar to clear to be reliable and good. If we compare to shooting, then it's the difference between Govad Sniper (decent at shooting), Lasiq Viral Sniper (decent at shooting and good supporting abilities) and Armand (good at shooting with excellent supporting abilities). Taskmasters or Kanren are not on the "careface" level of a Ghulam or Moderator, they're more on the Govad Sniper equivalency when it comes to CC, though I will have to note that it's far from as easy to make a Moderator (or their equivalent, all factions has an equivalent) perform well in CC as it is to make a Moderator perform well in shooting.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Despite the current politics, I think JSA is the best option for a faction that can do lots of CC. I mean, you can take 7 Samurai and some support in a 300pt list, and nobody is going to want to close with you.

    [​IMG] Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    It's a bit weak when dealing with objectives, but it will curbstomp almost anything.


    That's really the bottom end of 'competent in CC', though. If you have units with MA3, you really want to use them, instead. That +3/-3 on the die rolls is harsh.

    A unit with Assault (or Berserk) gives you an additional +6 if you're willing to eat a Normal roll in return, so a Domaru can reach CC32. Without bringing friends into the combat. You might lose the Domaru if the opponent has a DA, EXP, or Mono CCW, but you are going to cut down almost anything. Plus, your opponent will still be at CC-3.

    If you don't Berserk your Domaru, they're going to hit at CC26 and their opponent will be at CC-3 in that face-to-face roll. With how stats over 20 add to your die roll, your opponent will have to roll over a 7 to have any chance of beating you on a non-crit.
     
  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Domaru are totally great in CC, yes I'm aware, but the majority of targets in the game have CC 14-15 and are easy prey.

    Domaru can kill CC specialists effectively, which is good and useful, but it's often not what you need. In fact it's often just bloat. Would I like Bandits more if they has Musashi-esque CC ability? Not if it cost 3-4pts more, no, not really. I've had this argument many times on this forum and I stand by it; 9/10 you only need to be the lower level of CC ability, and anyone with CC20-21 and MA1-2 or whatever (Jags, Bandits, Spetz etc) is a very viable CC combatant.

    And I know what you're thinking, why not just blast away with the Bandit's LSg? And usually in fact, I do. But if I come across a Croc Man, then I'd rather get into CC and that's a pretty strong advantage over a Zero in the same position.
     
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  8. Xince

    Xince Member

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    The thing i find hard top, is not only you have to get un btb but there's also the fact that you need à weapon for the task.
    Typically, i'm looking at Caledonians, they're really skilled at CC with Good PH overall and some nice skills (and the smoke to get in contact), but apart from William Wallace and McDoggy they all have Ap CCW.
    Do you aim for the crits in CC or is it juste me seeing a problem where there is none ?

    The other thing i see impeding CC IS that MSV really hurt most of the CC spécialists. Camo/smoke are really needed for them and a Good msv2+ ARO piece might mitigate that hardly. Not that you shouldn't prépare to deal with this kind of threat anyway.
    Also for ITS there's really few CC troops that are spécialists too so you Always have to support those Sword carrying dudes.

    PS : Anyone having ideas for a MO CC list?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Typically, Caledonians have okay CC, access to Berserk, and are typically cheap. There's a bit of a mix that doesn't make this true for all of them, but most units have at least two of these qualities.

    45th Highlanders are dirt cheap and have Berserk. Sacrificing two or three of them to take down a HI like an Asawira is not too bad.
    Wulvers are kind of an alternate version of Domaru. Better at shooting and moving as well as taking on other CC masters, but less fancy CC weapon, but they'll still ruin most targets (Domaru included) in melee regardless if they get crit or not, and they have a wound to soak most units' return fire.
    Cameroonians aren't terribly great at shooting, so tossing a grenade and then moving in to rip and tear is viable. Choose your target well, avoid Domaru or Myrmidons and go for Keisotsu, Karakuri or Thorakitai.

    In short, I mostly agree with Solar, even though I think he's underestimating the cost of CC ability slightly :) I'm not well versed in Caledonians specifically to make any judgement on if this works well or not, but that's the theory of it. The AP weapon usually means they'll only need to win, not crit, to deal damage. DA CCW is usually better (unless you're fighting a heavier TAG), but it also costs more.
     
  10. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    The way i see it there's three kinds of CC.
    There's the surprise attack blitz of CC from a marker, where you're stacking all the mods you can to try and guarentee a critical hit with minimal risk.
    There's the opportunistic kind of CC where you find yourself up close to the enemy and mathemically CC just gives you a better chance than a shoot or a dodge, or you've got stealth and you're sneaking around behind people.
    There's the calculated kind of CC where you're up against something crazy tough like a TAG or about to eat a template, and engaging in CC is your best tool for dealing with it, or its your last order and your impetuous cameronian is out in the open, but if you engage an enemy that makes you harder to hit.

    Only a few troops are good for all three. A lot of CC-orientated troops are good enough to do the job if called for (eg. Taskmasters, high CC TAGs) but its just part of the package, not the central point of the unit. There's a difference between a CC-specialist and a shooting platform that can fight up close.

    Some units straddle that line of course. Umbra for example, or SP heroes. They can do both really well - thats why they cost so much.
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Considering Galwegians crit on a 13 or higher in CC (CC21+6 for Berserk=CC27, so +7 to your die rolls and critting on 20 or higher), yeah, you're really counting on the crits. So you're going to do an auto-wound 35% of the time. Yeah, the Galwegian is almost certainly dead afterwards, but you're trading a 6pt model for one that is 20+ points, maybe as much as 50.
     
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  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Caledonia
    Caledonia bar none
    6 pts
    Reg
    Ex imp
    Wip14
    Ph14
    Smoke
    Chainrifles
     
  13. Xince

    Xince Member

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    So to sum it up roughly, CC specialists or CC able troops (like taskmaster) Can almost Always force a damage Roll or directly wound an opposent. Whether they survive it or not dépends on the troop used (as for shooting).
    They usualy have some means to get into rampage, be it smoke or marker state or multiple wound, so as for any other troop infinity it's à question or being able to plan ahead to get shit done.
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Probably Hospitaller/Magister link is best bet. Problem being that usually most of the stuff is dead (you or enemy) before you reach CC.
     
  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    CHA is very strong in CC but I don't feel like these guys put them a cut above the rest, any more than Shaolins do (cheaper and more survivable in CC). CHA excel at a form of CC and a form of CC delivery, but they are weak in ways others are not (a Nisse or Aquila for example rather scuppers them, whereas to a Fiday, these things are choice prey).
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Why would cha be scared of an aquila or nisse?

    Its one of the strongest per pt active ranged armies in the game between the grey caterans linked scots and even mormaers.


    But thats all besides the point.
    In CC a galwegian will walk into a unit. Kill that unit and apart from when fighting units significantly higher than them, walk out the other side and do it to the next troop along the way.

    And the above is just the gals. Its not the dogs. Its not the sas or uxia who have the cc camp capability to walk right up to units and job the. Then theres wallace wulvers and the rest
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    If your argument is that CHA is the best at CC because they have the best viability of getting it there due to their efficiency at establishing firepower dominance, then that's a fair comment and a reasonable argument, but what you said was CHA far and away because G45s exist, which I don't think is true. And you'll note that I argued against that position, not the position of "CHA are good in CC" (which I agree with).
     
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  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    You forgot one if not their main quality : berserk (and the near guaranted hit/wound that come with it) and dogged. Without this, the highlander would be a standard WB, not the crazy murder machine they are.
     
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  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    huh, I had it on the list....right above smoke, stupid phone.

    Yes Bezerk is Huge, a Normal roll on 27 that doesnt take negative modifiers for MA....thats massive
     
  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Just using Gals as an example, but yes this is a better way of stating it
     
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