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combat abilities stack

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Re-L, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Re-L

    Re-L New Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I have a question about the use of Berserk and Natural Born Warrior.
    Do these abilities stack? Meaning: can I use them both in one attack?

    Thank you
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Special_Skills

    Yes they do:
    • If a trooper has more than one CC Special Skill, he can use them all and combine their effects. For instance, a trooper with Berserk and Martial Arts can apply both and combine the MODs provided by the former with the MODs of one of the Levels of the latter.
    And nothing in Bersker or NWW indicates they cannot be combined (you must choose a single application of each, however), so yes, you can hit with +12, but it's a normal roll, so be ready to eat a wound aswell.
     
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  3. Re-L

    Re-L New Member

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    Thanks a lot mate, very concise and clear.

    Another question about CC, with Bakunin Uberfall Kommando:

    if I attack with all 4, and the Chimera is performing the attack, do I roll 4 dice for the Viral CC, or do I roll 1 Viral and 3 DA?
    It seems to me, by reading the rules, that I roll 4 Viral.

    Also, is it possible to hide the Chimera behind a wall and let the 3 other guys do the work?

    Can I attack with all 4 having the Pupnik being the leader of the attack? I assume i can't as it's not the controller.
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Ghost_(G)#Ghost:_Synchronized

    The first bullet point is not totally relevant (it says, simply, that you can attack with a pupnik an enemy in melee and the ones not in melee will Idle).

    So, the second bullet point answers your questions: Can you leave the Chimera hidden and hit with 3 pupniks against the same target? Yes. And one of them will be "leader", and hit with +2 Burst & +2 Damage as DA.
    If you use the Chimera, she is not required to be the leader (but you really should let her if she's exposed, since "breaking" her also takes out the pupniks), but she'll get +1B and +1Damage for each pupnik in the same melee, all Viral attacks.

    The bad point of the Chimera is that she is Extremely Impetuous (so you need a Regular Order to avoid her charging around to the closest enemy trooper in miniature state) AND the Climbing Plus means she will get tons of AROs (because she will have no qualms about climbing a tall building, go to the edge, and then suffer AROs from a lot of enemies); of course she can Smoke dodge, but the system of Infinity means that more often than not at least one enemy will surpass the smoke... and now you have the miniature parked in an exposed position.
     
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    If the Chimera is the model chosen to make the rolls all attacks are made with her CCW, up to a potential 4 Viral hits!

    Yes, you can hide the Chimera and just attack with the Pupniks.

    Even though the Chimera is the controller any of the Synced troopers can attack in CC

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/index.php?title=Ghost_(G)&redirect=no#Ghost:_Synchronized

    However, in the Active or Reactive Turn, if more than one member of the Synchronized Unit is engaged with the same adversary, then only one of them will perform the CC Roll, getting a MOD of +1 to his B and +1 to the PH Attribute for Damage for each additional member of the Synchronized Unit engaged in the CC.

    Emphasis mine
     
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  6. Re-L

    Re-L New Member

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    So the nice thing is that using all 4 of them I can always choose whether I want to use Viral or DA, as I'm not forced to use the Chimera.

    The bad thing is the climbing plus, that I hadn't considered.
    Probably it'd be better to deploy them out of LoF, but in open ground, to allow them discharge the first 6 inches of movement without ending on top of a building. Still it makes them tricky to deploy.
     
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  7. Re-L

    Re-L New Member

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    cos the thing is, the kommando can potentially melt a TAG in one attack, with 8 armor rolls required at power 16. Especially TAGS that have no means to fight in CC. The problem is keeping them alive for long enough :P
     
  8. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Cool (shitty) thing about the Kommando is that NBW grants stealth, but Pupniks don't have it. So if you have smoked your target blind, you can get in base to base contact with all four of them, but your opponent can't target the Chimera because of stealth. He is forced to target one of the Pupniks which leaves your Chimera free to make normal CC rolls on the target, with CC24, burst 4 PH17 Viral. That's usually enough to kill anything in the game.

    Doesn't work against fireteams of 4 or more members because of their sixth sense though.
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It doesn't work that way, though. Touching the enemy's base breaks stealth. What you can do is move with the pupniks in total cover while the chimera moves outside of LoF, the enemy has to ARO the pupniks, and then the chimera can move into B2B with the target. Then you activate the Kommando again, the pupniks move into B2B with the target (the enemy cannot shoot them since he is in CC with the Chimera, and will in fact be forced to declare against the Chimera's Idle) and then you can CC with all four units, with the chimera as leader or, if you are facing a TAG with no means of multiwound, "eat" the hit with the Chimera and deliver 4 AP attacks with +3 PH! It might be better for wounding the target, I mean, and since the girl is inmunne to almost everything AND some (structure!)...
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Base to base contact doesn't break stealth, but it does take this argument straight into the partially unsolved territory of "can I ARO a trooper who's got stealth if their Link/Servant/Perimeter gives me an ARO?" (see: other discussion)
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    In this case, no, you cannot, since you are forced to spend your first ARO on the Pupniks. Of course, if you can see them, you can decide to try and Dodge, and since the Chimera makes her second movement first, then you roll to see if you dodge, you can separate yourself from her XD
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I meant in case of a single enemy entering base-to-base it doesn't break stealth (and technically not here either, but I do agree that the Pupniks will spoil it for the controller), it just toes in hard to the debate on Stealth, Mixed Teams and Hacking we recently came to no agreements on.
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yeah, toes in, but not hard, and it's the second order spent just to enter B2B (meaning on the next order...). The other case was because Stealth hacker with non-stealth flunkie and the seven shades of surprise pain they deal. Unless you have a white/defensive hacking device (one of which, or both, give SS2 against all hacking, so...)
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Right.
    White gives you the ability to delay, Defensive Hacking Device doesn't have any programs or features that'll work against an estimated 95% of hacking in this game except the innate firewall :p
     
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  15. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about caledonian greatsword-style hacking ? :p
     
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  16. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    It very specifically does not, it says so right in the rule bullet points:
    "A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them."
    You do have to stay out of LoF though, like inside Eclipse Smoke.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It would do to read everything, not just one thing, since the rules are so... dispersed.

    First, we agree this is not a Cautious Movement (since it's an entire order and the Stealth trooper is doing 2 short movements).

    Engaged is a state that activates when a trooper enters B2B with an enemy trooper (and B2B breaks marker states). Also, please do note that there is an Engage ARO (sub-labeled as movement) that is not relevant.

    Stealth has a caveat on the last bullet point:
    So ok, you won't be generating an ARO in that order... but you have lost any option with that miniature aside from the CC-approved orders, and if you are outside of the LoF of an enemy miniature, it's better to shoot at it, forcing a Change Facing roll (if you are inside the ZoC) or making a normal roll (if outside).

    Mind you, I find funny how B2B breaks marker state but not stealth.
     
  18. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what your point is.
     
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I consider bad answers to just quote a fragment of the rules in this game, without providing a link to the rule in question for fast consulting.
     
  20. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    so you lost options you didn't want to use anyway. a chimera engaged with all pupnik is much better off using a CC-approved skill rather than attempting to shoot a Combi Riffle through eclipse smoke.

    I see both tactics to be working.

    Move+CC. You move with all four models into base contact (the target being in eclipse - either that or facing the wrong way for some reasons). Stealth means he cannot ARO. But if you do attack as a second short skill he can ARO after the second short skill. Except it will be too late because after the first short move he already had an opportunity to ARO the pupnik. Hence he dodge or CC the pupnik and you attack with the chimera. Of course, a dodge will be against everything - both the pupnik and the chimera. So you still have a FtF anyway. Not a huge benefit against model who like to dodge, but against a model who wanted to CC back, it could work (or not, see end of my post).

    Using 2 orders. The first is a move outside LoF, ARO is change facing against the pupnik. Then move with Chimera. New order is move with pupnik to give a bonus, ARO is a Dodge against the chimera activated in base contact, then you attack with your choice of chimera or pupnik. I don't see a huge benefit of this tactic.

    The first tactic toes in hard with the hacking arguments. As all four model came in base contact, 3 gave an ARO opportunity and 1 didn't. Now having the ARO opportunity means having the opportunity to hack any active model activated by the current Order inside hacking area, or CC any active model in base contact in this case here. Which is debatable. Or the unfortunate model can opt to Dodge away from the engagement which will be FtF against anything so there is no need to debate if you can ARO against the activated chimera using the ARO provided by the pupnik because a Dodge is always against everything not against a specific model.

    edit to add rules:
    Rule from ARO page "AROs must choose the trooper activated by the Order as their target."
    Since the Chimera is a trooper activated by the Order, it can be chosen as a target. Provided that another activated trooper allow you to ARO against the current Order.
     
    #20 Robock, Jan 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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