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Code One: Reset Mods from States

Discussion in 'Rules' started by inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    If a Trooper is in both the Targetted and the IMM-B state and declares Reset as a Normal roll what MOD is applied to their WIP to clear both states?

    A: A single -3 MOD, or
    B: the MODs are stacked for a -6 MOD
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Or do you have to get rid of them separately, each at -3?
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I assume that you mean they're 2 independent tests as part of the same roll? Not that you'd need to clear them in sequence?

    The first would suggest that if in IMM-B and a Hacker tried to Spotlight you, the situation would be: Roll 1 dice to FTF attacker, check that roll vs -3 WIP to break IMM-B.

    The second would suggest Reseting vs the Spotlight would have no impact on the IMM-B state.

    I'd need to check to see if either awkwardness is avoided.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Targeted:
    EFFECT
    ► Troopers in this state must apply a -3 WIP MOD to their Reset rolls.

    Immobilized-B
    EFFECTS
    ► Troopers in Immobilized-B State cannot declare any Skill, Attack or ARO, except Reset applying a -3 WIP MOD.


    Tageted makes all Reset rolls harder, period.
    Immobilized-B makes all Reset rolls harder, period.

    -6 flat no way around it.
    Or an Engineer to remove both in one Order.

    CANCELLATION
    ► The affected Trooper successfully passes a Normal or Face to Face Reset Roll, applying a -3 WIP MOD.
    CANCELLATION
    ► The affected Trooper may cancel this state via a successful Normal or Face to Face Reset Roll, applying the -3 WIP MOD provided by this state

    One Reset would clear both though.
     
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I believe he meant the second one. As in, you have to choose which state you want to be clearing with your reset, as you can't clear both. I certainly hope that's not the case and it's more like making a dodge ARO against a shot against you and a mine: one roll that could (potentially) have two different results against different states. Having them stack, as in B certainly makes infowar more interesting, however...
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's my inclination as well. But it's sufficiently ambiguous that having it fully explained somewhere would be useful.
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    A successful Reset Roll will cancel both States, because both of them say ‘successfully passes a Normal or Face to Face Reset Roll’. So any successful Reset cancels each State, you don’t have to be specifically trying to cancel that State.

    Both States apply a -3 MOD to Resets, so it will be at -6.
     
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    "A successful Reset Roll, whether it’s a Normal or Face to Face, allows the user to cancel their Targeted State and IMM-B State, applying any State-specific MODs."

    I missed that from Reset. It clarifies this nicely. :)
     
    #8 inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I agree that it's very clear. Each state says that to clear it you need to pass a Reset at -3 MOD, but nowhere does it say that this is a MOD that applies to Reset universally on other states. The line in Reset even says that the MODs are "State-specific" so why would you apply a MOD that is specific to IMM-B when it is Targeted you're clearing?
    It may be that I've got some baggage from N3 where when you Dodge versus a Mine and a Trooper at the same time, you get -3 against the Mine, but not the Trooper - is this stacking also applied there? Alice moves around a corner and triggers a mine, at the same time Bob sees Alice and declares a Boarding Shotgun in Template mode; when the Fusilier Alice rolls an 8, she fails against the Mine, does she also fail against Bob's template?

    Bonus question: seems like states are cumulative, so is it correct that a trooper can be affected by several IMM-B?
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    IMM-B:
    Troopers in Immobilized-B State cannot declare any Skill or ARO, except Reset, applying a -3 WIP MOD.

    Targeted:
    Troopers in this state must apply a -3 WIP MOD to their Reset rolls.

    They both apply MODs to all Reset rolls. Am I misunderstanding your question?

    Again, I'm not sure I understand. Where are you seeing text that says a Trooper can be multiple instances of a State?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1st: Both are applying a state-specific MOD. What dictates that they stack to a state the MOD is not specific to?
    Follow-up: Does this kind of bleed-over stacking apply everywhere; If a trooper is affected by both a Mine and a Surprise Attack, will they have -6 MOD to their Dodge against both?
    2nd: Game States say "All the different States are cumulative [...]" and cumulative means "increasing or increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions", so I'm asking if there is a rule against several applications of a state because that seems a bit excessive.
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    1. As already mentioned, the MODs apply to all Reset Rolls. If you haven't rolled equal or under the Success Value after applying both MODs, you haven't made a successful Reset Roll.

    2. Exactly. "All the different States are cumulative". Could you please point me towards any rules text that lets a Trooper be in the same State more than once, or says how to resolve that?
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1. Fuck sakes, I think I've pieced together an answer to this one by basically going over as many examples as I can find

    Here's the rub of it: MODs stack on a per-attribute level according to the general MOD rules (although there's almost always an exception) meaning that if there is a MOD to an attribute in a particular situation that MOD is meant to be added to the attribute of the unit doing the action. So far so good, the MOD will modify the attribute and then you'll make a dice roll using the modified attribute.

    However, according to Mimetism examples, this way of stacking MODs does not apply to certain interaction-specific MODs such as Cover and Mimetism, but it does seem to apply to Surprise Attack. Further from an example buried under Dodge we also find out that the negative MOD from Concealed Equipment and Templates not in LOF are also MODs that don't stack on a specific action roll.
    What this means is that a single dice roll can have more than one outcome because there can be more than one set of MODs that do not stack with each other affecting any given dice.

    So, in conclusion, the general rule is that MODs stack and that they do not create a multi-result dice roll like how Concealed Equipment or Template Attacks can, so in the case of Reset in absence of an example the MODs will stack. The same should be true for Surprise Attack, meaning a Jujak that is Surprised while trying to Reset will be rolling at -6, again this is mostly in absence of an example proving otherwise.

    2. Carbonite states that if the opponent fails their BTS save they enter the IMM-B state. Thus there is not only permission, but obligation, to apply that state to the target when they fail. Being a permissive rule set means there is now a permission to apply a state marker without any limitation based on whether there already is a state marker there, so where does the rules limit the number of times a state can be applied to a target?

    Also, the same states not stacking has interesting implications for Unloaded (which I always found to be a weird thing to have as a state)
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you give me a specific example of MODs stacking and not stacking?

    Huh?

    The State is already being applied. What rules text is telling you to apply the Effects multiple times, or even how to apply the Effects multiple times?

    State Tokens (not Markers, that's now a separate game term) are irrelevant, as they are a reminder, and not the actual State.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    MODs from Cover and Mimetism does not stack on the shooting trooper's BS Attribute, but only locally on the dice roll specifically directed at them
    MODs from Concealed Equipment does not stack on the Dodging Trooper's Attribute, but only on the dice roll specifically interacting with the Template and only for the specific comparison with whether you Dodge the equipment.
    MODs from Surprise Attack and IMM-A stacks with the Dodging Trooper's Attribute, including for dodges made in other interactions such as against a triggering Mine.
    Because it says that the states are cumulative. And please don't pull the one about "different" again, because you of all people know that it can be equally used to indicate inclusivity rather than exclusivity in this context. E.g. "the different coloured balls will be put in the same bowl" will be used to communicate that all colours of balls will be put in the bowl, not that there will be at most one per colour.

    That is all good and well, but where does the rules actually communicate that a unit can't enter e.g. the IMM-B state more than once?
     
  16. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    DIFFERENT states are cumulative
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Which is not written in a way that excludes similar states.
     
  18. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Maybe i'm missing something.

    If there is written CLEARLY that DIFFERENT states are cumulative, how do you claim that multiple instances of THE SAME one are applyable?
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Did you read my example up there? Let's have another "Students from different universities all over the country come here". Where in this does this indicate that there aren't two students from e.g. Yales there? Different can be used and is often used to indicate that the specific event is not exclusive to a specific group of individuals.
     
  20. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    This is a lovely example of type-token distinction in linguistics: "All the different States are cumulative"

    You guys are discussing whether it's only different state types that are cumulative or different state tokens (each state adds a MOD). That's where the disagreement comes from. Since in N3 state types only could co-exist on a trooper, I'd say it's the same here.
     
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