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Code One: Regen while Unconscious?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Can you Regen while Unconscious?

    RAW the answer appears to be "No" .

    From Unc.

    ► Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment have no effect while Unconscious.

    Regen is an Automatic skill and says nothing about being able to be used while Unconscious.

    I ask this question because it's fundamentally different to how Regen works now, breaks some interactions (that admittedly aren't in Code One yet) and is counter to expectations.

    I see 3 different answers:
    A. No
    B. Not in Code One
    C. Yes, this needs an errata
     
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  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm assuming you are noticing that there is only one trooper that has Regen that also has 2 W or the ability to get 2 W (there are 3 others, but all of them have 1W and no Protheion). Based on this, I'm willing to bet the answer is C. Would be nice to see if the new system brings live updates to the pdf, however... ;)
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I honestly didn't check profiles. My memory was that ZY was the only relevant one.
     
  4. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    No but Regeneration does say it's Automatic during the States Phase.

    I guess they should remove to label to also remove nit-picking.
     
  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is a good technical question, the skill itself though says you can use it.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It does, but the unconscious state says you can't... and nothing in the Regen skill says it overrides that. Like I said, looking at the profiles that have it, I am certain it's supposed to able to be used while unconscious, but the current language doesn't seem to allow it.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    It would be clearer if extra text was added to Regeneration, but it is actually allowed for in Unconscious:
    ‘Other Special Skills and pieces of Equipment allow the cancellation of the Unconscious state as indicated in their rules.’
     
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    All it needs is a parenthetical "even while unconscious" somewhere in the skill. There are currently 4 steps you have to go through to justify it's use while unconscious:
    1. Regen heals a W
    2. Healing a W is a cancellation clause for the unconscious state
    3. 1. + 2. = Regen a special skill that allows the cancellation of the unconscious state
    4. Therefore it's not disallowed by the unconscious state and can be used while unconscious.
    That's a bit more cognitive overhead than I was expecting from the streamlined rules.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So you can Protheion while Unconscious? /facetious

    (I get that you can't spend an order on the Unc model to get that to happen, Sabin nails my position).
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I was about to make a similar point with the doctor skill, but for those you actually have to spend an order on the trooper, and that's not allowed while unconscious. Or can you... Wait, what's the wording on coordinated orders, again? IIRC you can currently coordinate AMK so...
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't think it'll actually be an issue but it's certainly funky.
     
  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Reading the rule literally the problem is you don't even get to those steps I think:

    1) Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment have no effect while Unconscious.
    2) Regeneration is an Automatic Skill, therefore has no effect while Unconscious.
    2a. The Regeneration rule itself provides no exception to 1)
    2b. The Regeneration rule itself does not indicate directly in its rules that it cancels Unconscious, as explicitly required in the Unconscious rule.

    You've got to infer your sequence is an indication that regeneration cancels unconscious, in contradiction to the explicit rules to make it work.

    I hope they fix stuff like this in the new supposedly clearer rules.
     
    #12 Hachiman Taro, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
    wes-o-matic, Sabin76 and inane.imp like this.
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I agree.
     
  14. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Oh for...ok, so here’s a crazy idea. Whenever working on a rules set, note whenever one rule has an exception to another, and later evaluate how many exceptions there are and whether they merit a categorical rule that streamlines them.

    This is basically how NFB works, it allows the use of a label to avoid marking a bunch of equipment with rules like “This equipment is automatic but causes interference, and does not work when certain other equipment is activated that also causes interference.” Which is vague and annoying. It’s far simpler to mark things NFB and “Each trooper can only use one piece of NFB equipment at a time.”

    In this case I think CB ought to take advantage of the edition change to add a new equipment Trait called “Passive” that works like Automatic does now. Then change Automatic to include “this equipment works even if the trooper is unconscious.”

    It’d provide an opportunity to batch all equipment, frankly, by marking it as Active (works as part of an Order), Passive (no Order required but must not be unconscious), and Automatic (no Order required and works even when unconscious).

    Camouflage: Active
    Mimetism: Passive
    Regeneration: Automatic

    Simpler in the long run, it’s one more universal rule and a lot less opportunities for one-off specific exceptions.
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I actually had the exact same thought, but in thinking about it, I don't think there would be very many "automatic" skills/equipment in that list currently (C1). However, doing it would certainly allow more to be created without too much overhead.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Potentially Shaasvasti, Dogged, and No Wound Incapacitation could all be in this category, and would potentially allow them to avoid the near-blank trigger skill -> Game State construct that tend to cause far too many page look ups on the wiki. Explode L1 and Biolocator probably. And Ejection Device. Basically everything that's triggered by entering Unconscious.
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like there might need to be a distinction between skills/equipment that can be used while unconscious and those that are triggered by going unconscious (it's not like you can decide later to use NWI once you've fallen)... indeed, those first skills are simply putting you into alternative unconscious states, but I might be making more of it than needs to be.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's all very hypothetical, but there's a lot of "code duplication" with Valour L2+ and the Unconscious state that I think can be avoided and as @wes-o-matic put it, there is an opportunity here. Now, you don't need to take all opportunities, but it's there alright. It's at least going to be interesting to see how they address the linguistic shortcomings that the interaction between NWI, Doctor and Coup de Grace that N3 causes.
     
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  19. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    Just thought I'd point out here, I opened a copy of the rules pdf this morning in a browser and the rules for Regeneration have changed.

    They now include a third bullet point that says "This Special Skill remains active even when its owner is in a null state."

    I'm so impressed with CB that this was fixed so quickly.
     
  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Bravo to CB for this! Not only was it fixed quickly, they actually leveraged the fact that their rules are digital and easily edited! Looking forward to things being addressed like this in the future.
     
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