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CODE ONE: Martial arts charts clarity and Monofilament clarity

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Xuane, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. Xuane

    Xuane New Member

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    On the martial arts chart, it states that MA levels add additional damage to the attacks however, under the charts detailed information (page 67) it reads " Damage MOD: A MOD to the PH Attribute of the user to determine the Damage of a successful CC Attack."

    In this regard where mono has a flat 12 damage, if people just skim the rules using the chart and not actually read how to apply the modifier, you may end up with people using damage 15 mono weapons.

    No where in the rules for code one can i see that it states that mono is un-modifiable.

    This could be open to abuse due to misinterpretation either intentionally or unintentionally.

    Either mono needs to have it stated that the damage is not modifiable, the +damage section of the martial arts chart needs to be changed to +phys or (visible concern and conflicting feelings) mono is actually modifiable now and someone with MA4 or 5 have damage 15 mono!

    TL;DR Martial arts chart needs the damage column changed to +phys and clarify that mono is unmodifiable 12 damage.
     
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    This confusion is not new in C1 (almost exactly the same wording exists in N3), but it really is needlessly confusing and unclear. The table headers should indicate that this applies only to PH.

    Note also that this applies to pistols, although most models with MA have better CC weapons.
     
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  3. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Screenshot_20200428-115008_Drive.jpg The explanation for the table literally says it is a modifier to the models PH, and Monofil uses a flat Damage attribute, not PH.

    You also answer your own question by stating "if people skim instead of reading the rules then they might play it wrong" - so what help is clarifying the text if ppl aren't reading it?
     
  4. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Ok, but this is a great example of inconsistent wording being unnecessary and adding confusion/complexity.

    If the table column headings were as follows, it would immediately streamline the mental process involved:

    User CC

    Opponent Attribute

    User PH in CC

    User CC Burst

    If the content of the column is “+3” you already know it’s a MOD by definition, so including “MOD” in all the headings is nearly pointless.
     
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  5. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    what if you wait for the full N4 rulebook? Monofilament ammo is not part of Code One
     
  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yes, it's in the total rules (same as current N3). But the table in question looks like this:
    [​IMG]
    When using that table during gameplay, you have to remember that the "damage mod" isn't actually a damage mod - it's a PH mod that's applied to calculate damage from CCWs. It could be more clearly phrased in the chart headers. Please be willing to try and see things through someone else's eyes, especially those of new players who don't already know the system in and out.

    Given that monofilament CCWs are part of C1, I don't think that's a meaningful distinction. It's entirely possible that monofilament ammo won't exist as a separate entity anymore in N4, either. In fact, the way they've changed weapons to list both an ammo type and a save attribute means that they've cut the number of ammo types in the game roughly in half, since they no longer need to have duplicate pairs for ARM / BTS (DA / DT, AP / Breaker, ...).
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It doesn't affect all of PH in Cc though, only it's use for determining damage, not dodging, etc.
    Monofilament ammo isn't, but Monofilament CCWs are, with the ARM=0 and State=Dead traits.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It is though.

    [​IMG]

    Also this applies to Pistols.

    That being said, that MA chart clearly says that the Damage MOD modifies User PH not Damage and CC Weapons clearly states that it has a Damage value.

    I do agree that calling it a "PH Damage MOD" rather than just "Damage MOD" would be clearer though.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I guarantee if it was labelled PH MOD we would have the same thread asking of it applied to Dodge, Para weapons, recovering from IMM, etc.

    "PH DMG MOD" maybe?
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how the how-to-interpret-the-chart is not written under Martial Arts.

    Why should be assume people have 15 minutes to thoroughly read most of the rulebook every time they are uncertain about a rule?

    Monofilament is not an ammo type!

    For the same reason we're going to get another set of threads in a few years that asks if the MODs can be applied to Dodge. Again. But the answers will be mostly the same and it doesn't have to devolve into a 5+ pages of bickering because of lack of clear official answer this time.
    Dodge: Read the requirements for Martial Arts!
    Para CCW: Positive MODs only apply to friendly character, it's the hostile one making the PH roll against these.
    Rec. from IMM: Read the requirements for Martial Arts!
    e.t.c: Read the requirements for Martial Arts!
     
  11. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, the wiki will have 'Damage MOD (PH)', and will list the chart legend under every chart that uses it.

    Monofilament is no longer an ammo type. it's just a weapon with specific Traits.
     
  13. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    I'm by no means a new player, and honestly for a while I had thought this had been changed to allow MA to effect the damage value of monofilament in C1.

    In N3 the exception was clearly listed under the Monofilament ammunition section ("Monofilament Special Ammunition has a fixed Damage value of 12, regardless of the weapon used to fire it. This Damage 12 can never be altered by bonuses or Modifiers (MODs) from Special Skills (such as Martial Arts L2), Equipment, scenario rules, etc., unless otherwise specified.")

    The issue here is the explanation that the Martial Arts "Damage mod" column effects the PH attribute when determining Damage is only on page 67 at the start of the Special Skills Section.

    The Weapon profiles on page 52 and 96 list "12" under the Damage column, and on page 52, "Damage" is even in bold as if it were a keyword. No where does it mention Monofilament is unmodifiable.

    The Martial Arts charts on page 71 and 99 have a "Damage MOD" column. No where near these charts does it mention the "Damage MOD" column effects the "PH attribute when determining damage" only.

    The problem with this instance is we're using consistent language for the weapon profiles, and the Martial Arts chart (Damage), but then specifying the exception (non-PH attribute damage) on a completely different page in a completely different section labeled "CC Special Skills Charts Legend".

    As others have pointed out, if I'm a new player wanting to look up what my Monofilament CCW does, so I check the weapons chart in the back of the rules and see it's "Damage" 12.
    I then want to check to see what my Martial Arts Level 2 does, so I check the reference tables in the back of the rules and see it gives me a "Damage MOD" of +1.
    That's super easy to understand, my Monofilament CCW is obviously Damage 13.

    At no point would I (or anyone) go hunting through 100 pages to maybe find an exception in a completely different section.
     
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  14. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Hey what page is this on
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Page 67.

    Seeing as the Regeneration entry got updated, how about a little "remember box" on page 71 that says the DAM MOD only affects the PH value of an attacker for the damage? There's plenty of room below the chart.

    It could also be present on page 52 after the weapons chart as that's the first place monofilament is mentioned. (As an aside, I'd also change the EXP entry to be DA since EXP CCW don't exist in C1, DA does, and the full chart at the end of the rules has DA and not EXP).

    The reference on page 99 could also use it, but the format makes it more difficult to fit it in. On that one, perhaps just change the header for the Damage column.
     
    #15 Sabin76, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  16. Xuane

    Xuane New Member

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    Well this just got even more confusing, the example given on the Codeone wiki is used with Ceuvro Goldstein, who only has a mono cc weapon and a pistol. It shows not only does he get the + to hit in cc but also gets the +3 damage mod to his attack.
    Now I know someone will say it doesn't state he is using his mono cc weapon but it's also unclear if he is using the pistol.
    There has been no update to the monofilament weapon weapon trait...

    upload_2020-6-4_9-42-56.png
     
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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Well, neither monofilament nor pistols have a base damage value of 13, so it looks like he is making a bare-handed attack at DAM = PH. It is rather confusing...

    Edit: perhaps I'm missing something, but CC Attack now allows you to make one without choosing a CC weapon if you are using a CC special skill? Is this what Cuervo is doing in this example?

    {my emphasis}

     
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  18. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    That same exact example is in the PDF on page 73.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, which is actually where I pulled the quotes from (I haven't even been to the wiki, yet). For some reason I'm just seeing this consequence for the first time just now. MA allows you to make a CC Attack without choosing a weapon (apparently) and the old "Bare-Handed" rules are not in C1, and probably won't be in N4 without changes.

    It's interesting... if nothing else.
     
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  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Does an “unarmed” CC attack even still exist?

    I think you may be right, as the diagram says that the doctor is attacking with “meleé weapon: ccw” whereas Goldstein is using “martial arts L4”.
     
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