Co-ord Hacking, multiple target Supportware

The issue is that the rules interchangeably use target to refer both to "the thing I nominated to be affected by my actions" and "any thing which will be affected by my actions regardless of intent"

For example, template weapons have a clearly defined target and the critical rules reiterate that there's a single target of the attack, but we allow secondary troops hit by a spec shot to use their sixth sense to dodge at flat PH still, saying they meet the requirement of being targeted by an attack.

I think things like Fairy Dust which just affect "all X in your army" don't actually have targets in the first sense, and that those kinds of targets are what are relevant to coordinating orders.

In fact, we know it's the first type coordinate cares about because it's legal to coordinate spec shots to hit different secondary targets so long as they share a main target.

I think things like Overclock, Fairy Dust, etc. should be able to coordinate with any other hack as they do not require a target nomination.

 

Fairy Dust? It is clearly stated (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fairy_Dust)
REQUIREMENTS

• Only HIs from the same Army List as the user may be chosen as targets.

Overclock is not so clearly stated, but it is the same (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Overclock)
REQUIREMENTS

• This Hacking Program affects all the friendly REMs possessing the Repeater piece of Equipment from the same Army List as the user.

EFFECTS

• The target can only benefit from the effects of one GADGET Program at a time. Players must declare which one they will apply.

Same wording, for example, in Reboot (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Reboot)
REQUIREMENTS

• This Hacking Program affects only friendly Hackers, HIs, REMs and TAGs from the same Army List as the user.

EFFECTS

• The target can only benefit from the effects of one GADGET Program at a time. Players must declare which one they will apply.

Any model affected by a Hacking Program is a Target.

 

Quoting your own thread https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/hacking-in-hsn3-summary-and-rules-clarifications.3372/

CO-ORDINATED HACKING

You can’t Hack as part of a co-ordinated order unless you have an EVO Hacker. But, if you have an EVO Hacker you're allowed to co-ordinate any Hacking programmes as part of that same co-ordinated order (e.g. WHITE NOISE, BRAINBLAST and SPOTLIGHT is valid) so long as they either all have the same target (e.g. BRAINBLAST and SPOTLIGHT both target Bob) or don't have a target (e.g. WHITE NOISE). You can even co-ordinate Entire Order Hacking Programmes (such as ENHANCED REAKTION) with Short Skill Hacking Programmes (such as BRAINBLAST) but if you do they effectively all become Entire Order skills.

 

The way I see this, normally when you do a coordinated order you declare your skill and then everyone who can do it does it while everyone who can't Idles. In the case of BS attack for example, anyone who doesn't have LoF to the target (which you actively nominate) idles because they are in a position where a failure condition of the skill is fulfilled.

None of these blanket programs (Fairy Dust, Overclock, etc) even give you the choice to actively nominate (choose) a target or targets. You aren't creating the failure conditions described in Coordinated order. As long as you nominate the same model as a Target for every program that requires you to name a target, all hacking programs should work.

In addition from coordinated order (emphasis mine):

• If one of the Skills of the Coordinated Order demands a target, all troops must act against the same single target.

This seems to indicate that "target" in this context only applies to enemy models, since you can't act against your own troops.

 

I think Spleen and Tom bring up good points.

Infinity (in its English translation at least) often has an issue with inconsistent use of terminology. This is a compounding problem because terminology is used to link rules together.

For example: Order, Activate, Skill; Camouflage Level 2: Camouflage; and so forth.

[Does your model have camouflage? Yea, it has Mimetism. No, I meant does it have Camouflage camouflage?]

Considering this, the question is pretty much not answerable RAW, because it requires one to interpret the meaning of a term that has an inconsistent use.

But in my view it makes sense for programmes that affect [Category][Subcategory], e.g. REM with Repeater, to not have a "capital T" target.

It is clear from context that there is a meaningful difference between 'Target' and 'target' within the gestalt of the game rules, and it appears (to me at least) that programmes like Overclock and Fairy Dust have a 'target' instead of a single 'Target'.

It is worth noting that "capital T" Target is often singular, and rules clearly relating to "capital T" Target often include (and emphasize) a singular target. but this may not always be the case.

 

Sounds good to me.

Where are you seeing a capitalised 'Target' being used in the game rules?

 

Sorry, I didn't mean literally capitalized, but rather figuratively capitalized. In the sense that the word "target" sometimes has a very specific meaning intended to trigger other game rules (the figurative "capital T" target) whereas other times the word "target" is used to describe something that is affected by a skill, but which is not explicitly nominated as the singular 'game element' to be affected by a specific skill upon the declaration of that skill. If you follow what I mean. That would be the figurative "lowercase T" target.

The fact that the same word is used in these different ways is what has created the issue currently under discussion, whether it is an explicit error in the rules or merely an issue of common misunderstanding.

In other words, the Coordinated Order rules use the word "target," and so do the rules for Overclock. But does this mean that both words mean the same thing? Is a "target" as described in the Overclock rules the same as a "target" in the Coordinated Order rules?

Normally, one would say "Yes," but attaching a consistent definition to the word "target" is inherently problematic because doing so would essentially 'break' the game. Therefore, we must assume that the word "target" has two equally legitimate definitions within the context of the Infinity game rules writ large. Having made that assumption, we are left to speculate about what definition to apply in the case of such hacking programmes as Overclock and Fairy Dust.

One can use context clues to make that choice, but it is ultimately a matter of speculation requiring some sort of "official" ruling that codifies a singular definition for the word "target," or a distinction between the hypothetical "capital T" target and "lowercase T" target.

In other words, when is a target really a Target?

It seems, IJW, that your guideline is that a target is a "capital T" target whenever a skill requires that a specific game element or elements be identified upon declaration of the skill, e.g. BS Attack. Whereas, when a skill description says "target," but does not require a specific game element or elements to be nominated, it not not considered to require a "capital T" target in the way that BS Attack does. If I follow your logic correctly.

Had there actually been a distinction between "target" and "Target" or "Target" or "target" in the rules, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

 

Could you give me an example in the rules of what you mean by the lower-case 'target'? I'm not 100% sure I understand the distinction.