Hi! We had a situation recently where a morlock climbed up a ladder to help his fellow nomads, by throwing smoke on them. He went up the ladder so that he could just see over the edge, and threw smoke. Was this legal? We've been discussing and checking the rules on p.36-37 (General movement rules) and p.40-41 (Climb). General movement rules say, amongst other things: "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface. Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb." The possible restrictions would, perhaps, be: * "The user’s base must be in contact with a vertical surface." - which doesn't specify that the *entire* base has to be in contact with the vertical surface (ladder), which gives due to the interpretation that you can sneak up over the edge when climbing (of interest for Climbing+) * and "Once the Trooper reaches a level surface, his movement ends for that Order, placing the Trooper on the horizontal surface (see diagram)" Appreciates any clarification :)
So you want to stay in the horizontal batman climb position, but move slightly past the top of the ladder so that your base sticks up over the lip of the building, right? I think the vault rules would apply, also turned horizontally. So you could only do it if there was scenery on top of the roof less than silhouette height away, to provide vaulting support for the part of the base sticking past the roof.
The idea of the horizontal climbing position just makes no sense to me. Why can't figures just stay vertical while climbing?
Checking the rules on p.37, where an example of vaulting is given, I can't see it says that you're forced to vault. If that would be the case, one couldn't seek cover behind crates since one would vault up on top of them too. Maybe on the border of being an extreme example, but just barely.. If you would happen to find a text in the rules as a reference to an explanation, I'd be much inclined :)
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not suggesting the unit is forced to vault. I'm not sure what you mean by being forced to vault. Let me try putting it a different way: Am I right that what you want to be able to do here is for the unit to remain in horizontal batman orientation, but poke up above the top of the ladder? If so then I don't think you can do it, because your base wouldn't be fully supported, as required by the Move skill "The Trooper’s base must always be in contact with the surface on which they intend to move." This is known to mean "fully in contact," i.e. you can't overlap off an edge, except where permitted to use the squeezing rule which isn't the case here. (There may be an exception where, if there is scenery on the roof, you might be permitted to poke over the top using the vaulting rules.)
That's where we're a bit confused. Finding anything in the rules stating that "in contact" mean "fully in contact" seems impossible. And it does raise even more questions. If that really is the case, then does that mean that you can't step up on crates, like a ladder, because if only 99,5 % of your base is on the surface, you can't exist in that place? Or walking over a small bridge, like a 3" bridge which is half your base size, but with no walls (effectively taking out the "squeezing"). Would that be illegal too? I know it's a noobish mistake to try find logic in Infinity rules, I still haven't fully embraced that.. haha.
It's not as explicit in N4 as in N3; you have the Move skill which states you have to be in contact with the surface you move on and that it has to be at least half the unit's base size. Then there's the FAQ which clarifies that you have to use the entire surface if able to. Then there's, of course, the common knowledge that air is not a surface part of the table, which prevents you from treating the air as a surface for movement. I feel weird stating this, but it is necessary. Air is not a gaming surface.
Ah, found it. Here is the ruling that your base must be fully supported: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/double-vaulting.38762/#post-383287
To me p1 of FAQ 1.1.1 under "MOVEMENT MODULE" has the answer: It also specifically states that you can only halve the width while moving, not the length :)
The FAQ says “No. If the space is wide enough for the Trooper's full base, you must use the full base.” - which doesn’t say anything about a situation where the base is NOT fully supported. It merely explains that you can’t squeeze through a corner to save inches.. Width and length are the same thing for a circular base. Or are there an oval sized base too?
So this means that if your base is only 99.5% supported on a crate, for example, you can’t stand there. So most crates are too small to use as stairs for running up on a roof? Been something we’ve done wrong since we started playing, if that’s the case (and it looks like it is).
I am by far no expert, pretty new myself. I would say in your playgroup you can apply your small own tweaks. Running over crates to get to a roof is quite cinematic, seems possible and is cool. So if you and your opponent both are okay with it ,do it even if your base is just supported 95% or whatsnot if the mini can safley stand on the crate it´s fine and doesn´t break the game.
As IJW wrote in the thread; discuss it before the game. If you're gonna treat a stack of boxes like a set of stairs, you really should clear that up before someone tries to use it and the other is surprised by that as a possibility.
Sure, agreeing before the game starts is a good idea:) I’m just trying to be better prepared for tournaments, and this issue wouldn’t have crossed my mind at all, had we not discussed it here. last question (put it out there earlier actually). A small bridge, 2,5 “ long, but just over half a base size. According to the rules: A) it has walls, so you can squeeze through and across it according to “corridor rule” B) it doesn’t have walls, so you can’t cross it since you can’t squeeze it like a corridor? (One can agree how to treat it, but I guess the rules are the preset conditions in tournament play so again, that’s why I’m asking).
The rules state you can move over terrain half as wide as the base but you have to end your movement on an area big enough for your base. There is no necessity for walls.
Best illustrated by the rules: https://infinitythewiki.com/General_Movement_Rules#Examples_from_Move As long as the space you are moving through supports more than half of your base* and the circumstances doesn't allow you to support your full base. Whether there's a wall or not doesn't matter. Can be a drop on the sides of a plank, can be a poorly positioned friendly** TAG or a HVT***, can be a bunch of ostrich-sized potholes in the road. * Arguably, by area, but area can be difficult to measure, so most commonly it's enough to measure the width ** Not a hostile trooper as your movement stops immediately on touching a hostile *** The rules do not allow you to move through HVTs as they are neither friendly nor terrain.
So moving over said bridge with my base overhanging both edges is okay, but using a ladder to look over the edge (with minimal part of base reaching out over the edge) is not okay? it’s inconsistencies like these that makes the rules so non-intuitive.. (I appreciate your time and help clearing this out, a lot!)
Jeebz, I came up with another example I’ve seen used in bat reps on YouTube. Actually live against me too.. Someone on a roof walks up on a parapet to get up higher and gain LoF to an enemy. According to what has been explained here so far, this move can’t logically be legal since the parapet is not half the base size, the base is likely sticking out and one cannot claim “vaulting”, since it says in the rules that the act we call vaulting requires you to “bypass an obstacle”, which you don’t do if just walking up on it and back again. This actually feels important since crucial models often are lost due to this. (Sorry for kidnapping you, won’t take up more of your time after this. Promise!)
I think mainly this is a perception issue. Unless you're jumping, you're measuring the terrain you're moving over. Moving over something that's not terrain is kind of undefined as such. As long as the base is less than a silhouette above all ground below it. Can't poke out over the edge of the building. Yeah, it's a bit silly, probably unintended, but plugging this rules hole is probably a lot more complicated than it's worth. Arguably, they could attempt to apply the same "forced movement" that they have on squeezing and I wouldn't mind that one bit.
