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Civilian Equipment (REMs, TAGs, HI)

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Del S, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Currently, there are no actual Mercenary/NA2 remotes per se -all of them use existing faction profiles for REMs, and no Merc/NA2 power armour units - they're all HI from existing factions. But it doesn't seem too outlandish for some kind of civillian variants.

    Right now, obviously, it seems that Pan-O Remotes are the ones most Mercenary factions get their hands on, Ikari and Druze using some, with Starco being Nomad they obviously take Nomad bots. But surely some kind of Remote variant exists that's not used by existing forces?

    Similar to the HI or even TAGs - the Anacondas are currently the only ones using "obsolete" TAGs, and Scarface is riding a Ramhorn-327 TAG that is sold by Pan-O but not actually used in-game by anyone else. And it doesn't seem too outlandish to have a PMC using some kind of "Hazard" suit, like the HEV suits from Half-Life, that was originally designed for a non-combat purpose. Powered Armour and TAGS could also be used for heavy lifting: Walking forklifts or outright power-loader-from-aliens type deals.

    And the RPG is probably laden with little references to this sort of thing but I've not really read it all, TBH :D

    So, to me, there's plenty of room to speculate on what sort of Civilian models of things might exist. So point of all this: To do so!

    What kind of non-combat equipment do you think is out there in the Human Sphere that some group or individual could plausibly slap some guns on and use in a firefight? Could someone have built armour onto a heavy lifter TAG and made Killdozer 2: This Time It's Just A Big Armoured Walking Forklift? Could someone have hacked a remote designed to install parts outside spaceships to have a flamethrower instead of a plasma torch? Has someone been making themselves a suit IN A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS?
     
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  2. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    In the Roleplaying Game stats the only TAGs provided are Nomads' Geckos and Yujing's Guijias; I assume that this is to show what could be the Stats of comparatively "Civilian Units" as I believe the Geckos are "Light Frames" optimized for Orbital E.V.A. Repairs before being fitted with hardpoint weaponry (and they are from Corregidor Mothership, where ANY Worker has some snippet of Military Training while Professional Soldiers are taught a smattering of Industrial Hazard Knowledge), while the Guijia without the hand-held weaponry and with less Armour could work as an "Heavy Frame" for Industrial, Building and Mining duty purposes. . .

    I could infer that they wanted also to show that these Suits are the most widespread between Mercenaries or Civilian Contractors, as it stands that ANY of the T.A.G. Pilots in the N.P.C. Section is using some variant of Geckos (but almost ALL of them have a Nomad-Related background fluff, so they could be possibly biased). . .

    About Remotes then I think that is the staggering numbers of Models and produced Drones that make Pan-Oceania the leader in that Market; would have guessed that Yujing would have followed that trend, maybe just for spirit of competition, but their various Rem-Drones seems to be less performant outside Combat and Heavy Industrial Application (this last seems linked to the Background of the Korean-made Drones, that I believe are the Rhuizi or similar). . .

    About Heavy Infantry Powersuits there is the Heavy Bounty Hunter as a touchstone; its Suit shows exposed "Myomar-Fibers Artificial Muscles" much like the Nomads Mobile Brigada (again a byproduct of Corregidor Mothership) but the general shape of the Helmet and some other particulars seems to hint at a Pan-Oceanian Frame with stripped down Armour-Plating. . .

    I could swear to say that in older Fluff of the first edition (2 edition ??) the Powered Armour of the Wuming Penal Corp was cheap but reliable (barebones with absolutely no extra frills, just necessary subsystems) to the point to be seriously considered by enterprising Mercenaries as a very good balance between Cost and Efficiency. . .

    For considering a good compromise for a Mercenary Company or other Civilian / Paramilitary kind of concerns the relatively recent "New Breed" of Superheavy Infantry Armour could offer a good compromise between Powersuits and rela T.A.G.s; while the Taskmasters of Bakunin and the "Kriza Boracs" of Tunguska could have started to be very cheap models, usually they are customized to the point of being ALMOST all "Personalized One-Of-A-Kind" (much like in the Outrage Manga where the Merc Pilot Beba is using "Stallion Jack" a normal Anaconda enhanced to incredible levels, able to go toe-to-toe with an "unnamed twin" of Scarface's Exosuit, another heavily customized "One-off" !!). . .

    But the Haqqislamite "Azrail" and "Ahl Fassed" are said to be obsolete, almost-scrapped "Vintage Suits" put back in action with some extra subsystems and enhanced armour, along with far heavier weaponry (the Ahl-Fassed "Combi-H.M.G. + Riot Grenade Launcher" is stuff usually seen just on the more devastating Military Models) so they could be a very good idea for relatively affluent "Civilians" that could nonetheless not afford the upkeeping / maintenance of a true T.A.G. !!!

    These are all infos that I collated by comparing stuff from any of the Background Manuals with the R.P.G. from Modiphius; there are some contradictions so take it with a grain of salt. . . . .
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Mercs don't buy civilian equipment, the mercenary outfits that sell to the richer parties in conflicts tend to be better trained and better equipped than the typical soldier that their employer trains. I think it's entirely appropriate that Druze have the lighter Pan-O materiel as that would be part of their contracts (i.e. access to the military industry) while it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to negotiate access to Yu Jing's new, cheap, HI suits (4-4 MOV, 3 ARM, 3 BTS, negligible increase in PH)

    @stevenart74 I highly doubt the Guijia would classify on a civilian scale at all. Civilian equipment don't need the agility nor the armour, and the Guijia is still sufficiently high tech to be out of reach for most factions. I'd recon that it's like saying the stats for a Russian Armata MBT is sufficiently close to that of a civilian bulldozer once you remove the turret.
     
  4. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    Onestly @Mahtamori I made a very broad-stroke assumption; I'm relatively puzzled by the insertion of the Guijia and went with the assumption from the various Manga / Anime iterations of Appleseed by Masamune Shirow, where Industrial Work "Land-Mate" Exoskeletons just taken from a Building Site were capable to go toe-to-toe with S.W.A.T. Police Frames with just some hand-held weapons (that in the Manga are just, at start, Pintle-Mounted H.M.G. with riflestocks added on). . .

    Even in later episodes of the Manga or the Anime / O.A.V. when the "Olympus Special Forces" have devastating models that have a lot of built-in weaponry and even fly thanks to "Maglev Wings" they have some problems when facing a Chevron-Striped "Humanoid Bulldozer" just like an encased version of the venerable "Ripley's Powerlifter" from Aliens. . .!!

    I think would have been better to put in the Manual some kind of custom suits like Szalamandras and especially scratchbuilt Lizards; not only they represent the top of Nomads Tech, but also are clearly statted to be "Vintage Pan-Oceanian Models" so that could have offered an hint ar what a Salvaged Old Junk could be with just some extra Armour and Subsystem. . .
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it has to do with Outrage, tbh.

    That said, I think what you're looking for is a military free arms trade (or whatever the technical term is). Sweden's and France' military industries are both theoretically bound to sell only to allies and peaceful nations, but our arms have a strong tendency to end up in the hands of totalitarian regimes and mercenaries looking for more high tech stuff. Either through smuggling or through blatantly ignoring laws and regulations*.
    I'm sure there's room in the fluff for Pan-O corporations manufacturing high-tech arms that they sell to allies (as defined as "not explicitly black-listed") as well as corporations or nations back on Earth that still engages in military research and development in order to stay relevant and provide income. Likewise, even though Yu Jing has a stricter control over their industries, they also likely have less moral qualms for what the buyer does with their weapons provided they are sold to parties the Yu Jing Party has a vested interest in gaining goodwill with. So while I don't think the Party will allow them to sell the Guijia, I'm sure a lower-tech version (not to be confused with "lighter") is probably in the offering.

    For the low price of 20 of the finest Ramhorn "Made in China" TAGs, Druze will go to Japan on an extended tourism tour and meet the natives.

    * Say what you will, technically Bofors isn't allowed to sell to the USA (because USA is actively at war), but actually enforcing that would be dumb, IMO.
     
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  6. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Bounty hunter current porfile have to wierd models with the Ip and the biket version. I know it's about getting from a dice roll on a table, but having a special porfile of a generic merc IP (basic, just cd13 bli 3 pb 3 and maybe visor X) or a generic merc raider could be fun.

    Respect to merc tags, fluff explain how expensive is at logistic level to maintain a tag. Thats why Anaconda squad is too expanded, high demand low offer. But ir looks like in outrage druze have some scarfce tags.. ( i know scarface is thr character not the tag xD). To be fair it will be more coherent to create a vanilla tag porfile using scarfe model, or create a new tag model with new porfile. ( But i find it difficult with all the realeses from this year, and with difficult to sell merc tags, nerfed versions of normal tags).
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I kinda figure that the Guijia is like a T72. Widely exported but maybe not up to the same armor specs. Ammo might not be quite up to spec, either.

    Same analogy, the Ramhorn-327 is equivalent to an M48 or M60.,,


    As far as S2 power armor goes, it might be firefighter issue. S5 power armor and S6 TAGs are probably Construction.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That... doesn't line up with the (propaganda excerpt) for the Si Ling. Why blow your propaganda budget on promoting the pilot training for your mass-produced exports trash?

    Hell, if Guijia are export items akin to T72, where are the T80, T-90 or Armata?
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I would fully expect the whole Nomad gear to be for sale, and they have the production rights (or templates, or whatever license) for the whole outdated Reptile series, the ones they updated. Plus they are everywhere working as engineers and "yard dogs", so...
    PanO seems to sell a lot of surplus weapon production, kinda like so many countries do IRL atm.
    The weapons carried by Mercenary Groups could be an indication of black market availability, to an extent. Kinda funny how the Druze used to have YJ weapons and now have Nomad weapons (mostly). Then remotes, and the like (StarCo seems to be directly sponsored by the Nomad Nation, judging by the amount of heavy stuff they can place on the table).

    As for civilian models or adaptations of the basic chassis, I'd bet ARM to be reduced at least by half (minimum 3, possibly 4), while BTS gets reduced to a straight 6 if it was higher. This is because ARM seems to be an abstraction of "can take damage and keep going" with "the user is protected" and "the hit failed to do damage", while BTS is another abstraction, this time a combo of "protects the user", "protects itself", "hacking protection", and "hazard protection". Industrial gear needs to be protected from harsh environments, and we are talking about acids, corrosion and other, global stuff, that tends to demand extensive dismantling and replacing of parts, compared to the "they blew the arm off" (so more Technovore Light and less Overlorded Hacking). They still need some sort of protection against external control, however, to avoid industrial sabotage.

    Maybe it's hard to control because it uses a different feedback system? Beva and Joe "Scarface" are riddled with control ports, but neither the Guijia nor the O-Yoroi pilots have any (the Anaconda's might be disguised as part of the bodysuit).
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it uses a different control interface, but that's not what I'm reacting to. If Guijia is a mass-produced export item, why is it toted as the epitome of Yu Jing military equipment that only the best of the best are allowed to train for? If it is so difficult to control that this is necessary rather than an honour, why would anyone buy it?
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ah, ok. First, prestige. Second, views. I'd bet they see the Guijia as the pinnacle of HI, a field in which YJ has fluff claims to be the best at. So, Guijia pilots are the best, because they get "the best heavy infantry gear"... which is TAG, but even so...

    Also, exported versions would have gutted systems... take 1-2 points from all stats, lower ARM by 1 and set BTS at 6, and you might have the "commercial" version they sell.
     
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  12. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I'm pretty sure Kriza and Taskmaster suits are state of the art stuff, and probably are prohibitively expensive, as much as if not more than a TAG. It's interesting that the Fasid and Azrail suits are just as armored but nowehere near as expensive though, probably because they aren't armed to the gills like Taskmasters are.

    Anyhow, reading this and the rest of the thread actually makes me think that civilian suits would probably be some kind of less armored, environmentally sealed S5 suits. Like, think deep sea diving suits that are armored but are also more concerned about environment protection than combat.

    It makes sense for me that a civilian suit would be larger also because miniature components necessary for something like a swiss guard armor or father knight armor would be even more expensive than the larger, easier to produce actuators of a heavy suit like a Fasid.
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Look at skills and stats to compare "advance levels". Besides, both Al Fasid and Az Rail move 10-5 cm (or 4-2 inches), that is MI levels of movement, due to the systems not having enough exomuscle.

    Nomad "Hi-Tech" stuff are old versions of the main potencies (like the TAGs, being the old Reptile series from PanO) they refit. I doubt the Kriza and Taskmaster are state of the art HI in the human sphere, but old units the Nomads have retrofitted to standard levels of capabilities, having to endure the higher size not only because of the miniaturization issues, but because they have to work with an existing frame.
    Kinda like picking a Hammer car and install a V-8 engine inside, it is still enormous, race engine or not.

    Up to a point, in the end you will have TAG-sized things easier than S5 HI gear. HI suits augment the user's PH and resistance, TAGs are big, fast, and strong, with a good base. So there is more industrial use for civilian TAGs than for suits that augment the user's stats.
    And for environment, MI gear is enough: you don't carry heavy loads, but are protected from the surrounding hazards (BTS6 MI do exist).

    Civilian HI of S2 or S5, I think would be possible in low quantities in certain, concrete situations: Mining operations, exploration of unknown places, and industrial works that require doing in very tight spaces (something more related to maintenance, and even that should be rare: good planning allows for that kind of stuff).
     
  14. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    You know nomads can make his own IP without retrofilling older models, they just lack of heavy industrial production and maybe build s5 models can be justificed as a way to make them cheap. The taskmaster armour sure looks like invented and made on bakunin black labs.
     
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I like to imagine that Varuna has some sort of Diving suit variant of a TAG to work on the various floating platform maintenance. It seems feasible some of the Varuna terrorists could get their hands on one and stick some guns on. This is of course not backed up by any fluff. Just a thought that Civillian Submersible gear would likely be different than the military grade stuff.
     
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  16. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    Totally sensate about all of this ideas of "Repurposed Labor Frames" to be something quite possible in Varuna; many Cartoon / Animes and Comics / Manga support all of this ideas in a typical Cyberpunk Universe such as the one of Infinity is. . .

    Also, from the Helot standpoint, in their small descriptive section in the Planet Varuna in the R.P.G. Manual is said that the more "Loyalists" between the Amphibious Natives employ a special Pressurized Suit, not to be able to operate on the surface (where they could stay relatively well, if they are not Elders, often confined to Benthonic Depths) but because they "Feel" more smart and well-balanced as brisk changes of Air / Water atmospherical pressure make Helots going almost mad. . .

    So it could be possible to infer that while "Libertos Terrorists" would be akin to naked "Swimming Bombers with Grenade Harnesses" maybe the more grateful to the Humans wear specially Armoured Suits and maybe also be trained to employ Nonlethal Weaponry (Epoxy Guns, Stun Pistols, Flash-Bang Grenades) to capture and subdue their wayward brothers and sisters. . .

    This is especially true as the "Libertos" somehow employ as Suicidal Kamikaze Shocktroopers some "Red Madness Natives" that suffer from a very weird "Mental Illness" that make some of them Crazed Berserker; it is a worrying trait that baffles BOTH Pan-Oceanian Biologists and Helot Elders (it is an unfortunate byproduct of Tohaa "Illuminati" meddling as they tried to "Morph" the Natives of Varuna into "Chaksa Styled" Anti-C.A. Troopers and then went away before stabilizing the process !!). . .

    There is a description of the poshest, trendy Cocktail Bar of Varuna where well-trained Helots perform duties not only as Waiters and Barmen, but also as imposing, massive Bouncers, so the pass to "Active Duty" could be no so far fetched. . .
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'd agree that a civilian Landmate suit would likely be ARM3-4 and not more than BTS6. Even though it's a S7 TAG.

    The T80-equivalent is the O-Yoroi (seriously, the T64 and T80 are made in the Ukraine), the T90 is 'just' a heavily upgraded T72. T14 Armata is completely separate, maybe the Su Jian. You can train someone on operations in a T64 and those skills are transferrable up to a T90, but the T14 is totally different.


    There's also the difference between the export, "Monkey-model" T72M and the current-issue T72B and T90. The T72M doesn't have the fancy composite armor that the T72B and T90 have.


    Well, most industrial diving suits are made from aluminum, and don't have the speed that a modern TAG would. They don't need to, because the water is slowing things down. Difference between a sprinter and a powerlifter.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, Ariadna is the faction I'd point to for repurposed civilian equipment. The whole damned faction screams Aliens Colonial Marines (not the video game)
     
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  19. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Thats an interesting point. it would be neat to see something like a 4-2 TAG. Because its a construction model.
     
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  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Well, TAG is "Tactical Armored Gear" with the words "Tactical" and "Armored" being key. There is no such thing as a civilian TAG in the same way as there's no such thing as a civilian Tank, a Tank is by its definition a piece of equipment designed for military/paramilitary operations, and a TAG is the same.

    I think it's likely that power-loader esque exo-suits probably do exist, yeah. Industrial exo-suits are going to have very different requirements and design focuses from TAGs however. They are going to be comparatively low ARM and while they might have environmental protection, remember BTS is also infowar security and suchlike, which isn't really going to be a priority in comparison. Plus I'd imagine that things like corrosive substances, heat and so on would be resisted with ARM, BTS is for more exotic attacks than that.

    For me, a civilian "power-loader" exosuit would be like this;

    MOV 4-4, CC 10, BS 0 (no targeting systems or weapons software), PH 16-17, WIP 10 (not that it really matters), ARM 3 (just because a big, heavy frame and protective panels against corrosives and such), BTS 3, Str 2, Sil 7. Putting guns on it would be pointless because you can't aim them properly, but if you put in some basic custom software maybe BS 10-11 max? It's not designed for aiming, recoil comp etc.

    If it's for Zero-G it will have Zero-G terrain and might have superior BTS, if it's for Aquatic Operations Aquatic Terrain and probably a higher ARM due to pressure. Most planetside industrial/urban equipment though, I'd use that.