If you want to blow the door off an Armoury and you have another guy in btb with the door, do you get +1 B and Damage My gut would be no, that's dumb. However, you also have to use CC Mode which also seems kind of silly so I guess I'd like to know.
The problem with the "gang up" bonus is that it requires two different things to be true: Troops declaring CC Attack apply a MOD of +1 to their B for each ally that is in base to base contact, and in Engaged state, with the target of their attack and is not activated either by an Order or an ARO. The Allies have to be in base contact and they also have to be Engaged. if you were Engaged by the scenery, all of the other side effects happen--your movement gets cut short and your line of fire gets restricted---so you're not going to making a drive by 'walk to the scenery item and away; then CC Attack' against it. If you want to become Engaged to hostile scenery item, Destroyed is the Null state for scenery items corresponding to the text "when all of a trooper’s adversaries are in Null or Immobilized state". (The Immobilized being referred to is the IMM states. Scenery items don't have that state by default. Those MOV 0-0 Seed Embryos lock MOV 4-4 troopers in Engaged just fine. :) ) The current rules don't really give you a way to say "I want to be Engaged with this scenery item" for any of that to apply, though.
solkan has mostly covered it, but you'll automatically leave Engaged state at the end of the Order (from http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Scenery_Structures#FAQ): Q: How does Close Combat work against a Scenery Item? A: In those scenarios in which it is allowed or required to destroy Scenery Items in Close Combat, they count as enemy troops for the purposes of declaring CC Attack, using CC Special Skills and gaining bonuses for multiple combatants (for example, Fireteams or Coordinated Orders). Note that at the end of the Order, the Scenery Item will not cause any trooper to be in the Engaged state. Note that this effectively means that when you move into base contact with the Scenery Item you'll have to decide whether you're going to be treating it as an enemy trooper or as cover.
So basically the answer is yes you can get Burst bonuses as if they were an enemy trooper but you have to officially "engage" (congratulations!!!) the scenery with everyone involved and that comes with all of the usual restrictions of being engaged like lof, movement, can't use dating apps etc
Don't forget the rings. More seriously, LoF issues shouldn't come up because they only really apply to starting the Order Engaged or still being Engaged in the reactive turn.
so, for example. if i understood correctly. Order 1 : model A move into base contact with scenery, but has no weapon that can attack it, so he does something else. At the end of the order he's no longer engaged. Order 2 : model B move into base contact with scenery and attacks it with a D-Charge. Since model A stopped being engaged, model B does not get any bonus.(edit:since model A is in base contact, you can choose to count him as being engaged to the scenery for the +1 Burst.) At the end of the order he's no longer engaged. Order 3 : spending a command token, the player activates both model A and B, with model B being the Spearhead. Now model B can attack the scenery with a burst bonus for model A who's also engaged. At the end of order, no one is engaged.
So you can run a Namurr Duo up to the door and get a B2 D-Charge on net CC 15 to blow it up? Because you activate them both so they both engage and therefore you get the Burst bonus, and at the end of the order they aren't engaged.
I think the note is that on Order 2, A would have to choose to be Engaged to provide the bonus. A doesn’t have to be able to do anything to the scenery, it just has to be Engaged in based contact with it.
The problem is that A will stop being Engaged with it at the end of the order. In the next turn C shoots A. Because A treated the terrain as an enemy and ceased being Engaged with it it also stopped being B2B with it and consequently will not get cover. Otherwise nothing stops A designating the terrain he's B2B with (from the start of the order) as an Enemy and thereby choosing to be Engaged with the terrain for the entire order in which C BS Attacks him (sweet -6 to hit) (A starts in B2B with an Enemy ergo A starts the order Engaged). (To describe this problem in another way: Order 1. My Bandit KHD Moves into B2B with an objective and Hacks Console. Order 2. I declare that I'm treating the objective as an Enemy. My Bandit Idles. An enemy trooper declares BS Attack. My Bandit declares CC Attack with a DA CCW vs the Console. What MODs are imposed? I'm at -12 for Cover + Mimmetism + Engaged). The second problem is Anti-material Extremely Impetuous troopers. My Warband's path takes it in contact with a piece of terrain: I opt to use it as an Enemy rather than cover, my Warband's movement ceases. The third problem is Moving into and out of contact with an Objective. IE a Bandit KHD Moves into B2B with an Objective in Suppremacy and then back to the position they started in. At this point Hack Console is a legal declaration, but what about CC Attack with a DA CCW? If CC Attack is valid, then if I do this will all 4 troopers of an Uberfalls can I declare a CC Attack at +3 B +4 Phys? Fourth problem. My Bandit starts an order in B2B with a piece of terrain. I declare Discover vs a Marker in LOF + CC vs the terrain. Is this valid? (This is really just a variation on the first problem, but sufficiently different that it's worth discussing on its own). Can we just agree the 'treat terrain as an Enemy that you're Engaged with' is purely designed to allow CC Attacks and bonuses of all descriptions but terrain are not really enemies that troopers become Engaged with? IE. "they count as enemy troops for the purposes of declaring CC Attack, using CC Special Skills and gaining bonuses for multiple combatants" but not for Movement, BS Attack MODs or anything else. This means that a model that is B2B with a piece of terrain at any point during the order* is able to declare CC attacks, use CC Special Skills or apply bonuses for multiple combatants. * Except when Superjumping, because FAQ.
1. Why are you moving the trooper? 2. This wouldn't fulfil the requirements of the Impetuous Order. 3. As per the other thread - you'd have to choose whether you're treating it as an enemy or as cover when you reach base contact. 4. Same as 3. If you're choosing to treat the terrain as cover, you can't CC it.
There's a problem with the scenario, though, although it does require precision movement. (Although the "And on the next order, stand in the same place and do it again, still giving the ARO a normal roll while attacking the scenery" scenario seems entirely reasonable for a sufficiently large population of models.) Model A activates and moves into base contact with a console. Reactive Model B gets ARO to it when it reaches base contact, and declares ARO Shooting. A is willing to take the hit and declares CC on the console. Why can't A have cover if that's the first time B sees it? I think it would be simpler to take this sentence "Note that at the end of the Order, the Scenery Item will not cause any trooper to be in the Engaged state." to mean "Note that the trooper doesn't actually become Engaged, and that the Scenery item will not cause any trooper to be in the Engaged State at the end of the order." Because I think extrapolating that you get a choice in the matter, or that Engaged goes away at the end of the order, causes too many complications. It's much simpler if you just get the benefits of being engaged without being engaged.
Nothing (well apart from everyone's movement stopping anytime they hit cover or never being able to BS Attack from in Cover). My issue is with scenery *ever* actually being an Enemy Trooper (rather than being treated as one for specific purposes).
1. Because if you don't move the trooper a putative 1mm then the trooper starts the next order in B2B with an enemy trooper (if I desire). Which means it's potentially Engaged for the whole order. Either outcome is problematic. You should also recall that this was your solution when we discussed this on FB. 2. Huh? I've moved the trooper until it " reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement". Yes, the path up to that point must be the shortest path. But that's trivial in the case of an Impetuous trooper which starts in B2B with terrain. 3 and 4 are issues to me because they increase the complexity of the game for no good reason. If I can Move into and out of B2B with a Panoply and loot it I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to move into and out of B2B with a Panoply and CC it. Fundamentally the rules are the same. The only reason you argue that they're different is because you argue that the FAQ applies to movement as well as to CC. IE. You argue that if I want to CC something I need to treat it as an Enemy for the purposes of "A trooper's Movement ends automatically whenever he enters base to base contact with an enemy, even if the movement route specified is cut short as a result" which is part of the movement rules. Whereas I argue that the FAQ only applies for "the purposes of declaring CC Attack, using CC Special Skills and gaining bonuses for multiple combatants" so if starting the order in B2B, Moving out of B2B + CC is legal then Moving into and out of B2B + CC is also legal. What I don't understand is why you don't agree that my interpretation is simpler? I've already shown that it's supported by the FAQ as written. As @solkan has it: gaining the benefits (to CC) of being Engaged without actually being Engaged is much simpler. It solves all the previous CC vs terrain questions and does not raise any new ones. Whereas actually entering the Engaged state with terrain raises a lot of new questions even if you dismiss their relevance.
1. Please bear in mind that I don't know you personally. Until this post I had no way to know that inane.imp = Robert on FB, so had no way to know that your posts were continuing a discussion from a different platform I don't remember exactly what I said on FB - I think I said the same as here, that you remain in base contact, but unless you're going to declare CC Attack during an Order you're not going to be Engaged. If I haven't been consistent I'm sorry for that. 2. In the context of Impetuous Order movement, I think it's clear the rules are referring to enemy figures, and that it's unlikely that a scenery item can be classed as an enemy figure for that purpose. 3&4. Thanks for the explanation. I can understand that stance and and I can see why you think it is consistent with other types of action. For me, it's inconsistent with all other CCs, but I can understand why you are choosing a different standard. I agree that your interpretation is simpler (and I don't remember saying it wasn't), but because my standard for consistency for CC is 'what happens with other CCs' I come to different conclusions than you. Please note that CC against a Scenery Item does involve entering and leaving Engaged state with the Scenery Item. This is why the FAQ entry has the sentence about not being in Engaged state at the end of the Order.
