So we know skills can be declared ignoring their requirements (this is only not true for lof). which means that cc is an action that can be declared as an aro when the active trooper is not in base to base (btb). we also know that n3 had a line that forbid the reactive troop from aro'ing from an active trooper walking into btb from outside lof via stealth without declaring anything else to break that stealth. This line was removed in n4 so if a model with stealth double walks (or idle + walk) into btb from out of lof then the reactive trooper is permitted a cc attack as aro as they are now given an aro due to being given lof from engagement. what this means is that it in all but 1 situation (that I can think of), it is impossible for an active trooper to end up in btb with a reactive trooper without a cc attack as a FtF (if the reactive player so chooses). The only situation I can think of that will allow the active trooper to end up in btb with the reactive trooper without there being the reactive trooper having a cc attack as a FtF would be if the active trooper dodges into engagement. to show as various examples, as each example the reactive trooper will be facing away from the active trooper and if stealth will be used will be stated in the scenario: 1) the active trooper first short skill is moves without stealth but not into btb. Because the reactive trooper is given an aro, the reactive trooper can declare cc attack. If the active trooper's second short skill is to walk into btb, the reactive trooper cc attack will now be valid and so the active trooper will get stabbed as a normal roll. 2) the active trooper first short skill is moves with stealth and not into btb. The reactive trooper is not given an aro and so must not declare an aro. if the active trooper's second short skill is to walk into btb, the reactive trooper cc attack will not be valid and so the active trooper will get stabbed as a normal roll. 3) if the active trooper first short skill is moves without stealth into btb is the same scenario as if the active trooper moves with stealth into btb. The reactive trooper is given an aro (either from zoc or just lof from btb), the reactive trooper can declare cc attack. from there the active trooper has access to their 2nd short skill to shoot/dodge/cc attack but will be a FtF roll as standard in the game. 4) if the active trooper first short skill is moves without stealth but not into btb. the reactive trooper is given an aro and declares cc attack. The active trooper's second short skill is to dodge. the reactive trooper's aro is now considered invalid due to the active trooper is not in btb. the active trooper makes their dodge roll. if the active trooper is successful, is allowed the ~2+ inches from the dodge and can end in btb with the reactive trooper. This is to both double check my current understanding of how the rules work and an interesting result. As before I used stealth and walking to manipulate aros to end up in cc with an terrible at cc model with my equally as terrible at cc model, effectively reducing them both to order monkeys (or someone has to use a model who actually can fight in close combat to go and save the trooper). What do you all think about this? Edit: ijw is correct, #2 scenario aro is valid.
I'm pretty sure #2 doesn't work. Stealth specifically disallows the reactive trooper from making an ARO in that circumstance; it's not a matter of meeting the requirements, Stealth says that you cannot, even if you meet the requirements.
It is my opinion that when the details of an order has to be declared, that burst has to be allocated according to which targets are valid according to the information at hand at time of declaration. But that's like my opinion.
I thought this was settled as part of Guard conversations: 1.3 Andromeda declares Move 2. Wolfy McWolfFace declares CC Attack with a Para CCW vs Andromeda 3. Andromeda declares BS Attack with her SMG using AP Ammo at Wolfy. 5. Wolf's ARO is valid. 6. Wolf's CC Attack does not meet Requirements and becomes an Idle.
I think you added a 'not' that shouldn't be there, which I've marked in red. But apart from that it all looks OK. Entering Silhouette Contact means entering the Reactive Trooper's 360º LoF (unless there is a Zero Visibility Zone involved). Not generating an ARO via Stealth requires staying outside LoF. This is not in the rules, and see also the issues with defending against Guard. If you're thinking of my old post about needing to allocate BS Attack Burst to targets in LoF, that was before the provisional rules answer and resulting FAQ.
I think @ijw has just ticked another one off the Unanswered Questions list: Per above, the answer is it's checked at Resolution so you can indeed declare a preemptive CC attack.
He also just answered the Move+Move with Stealth into S2S: it grants an ARO unless they're under a Zero Vis Zone.
Interesting! It's unexpected, but I think you're right. A moves into sil contact with B: A doesn't have stealth, no smoke: B gets to ARO a cc attack, even if A is in B's back arc. A has stealth, no smoke: B gets to ARO a cc attack, even if A is in B's back arc (due to 360 LoF in sil contact). A doesn't have stealth, they're in smoke: B gets to ARO a cc attack (due to ZoC ARO). A has stealth, they're in smoke: B doesn't get to ARO a cc attack. Stealth denies a ZoC ARO, and there is no LoF because the smoke cancels the 360 LoF. I always thought that troops in sil contact had LoF to each other even in a zero viz zone, so this is good to know.
Unfortunately not, just 360º arc! Theoretically this stopped you being able to use Dodge in CC in N3. :-(
Hunting down the two questions and marking them as answered... Nope, just sharing my opinion. Good point about Guard, though.
So does this clear up shooting back through smoke without LOF as well? * Trooper A, equipped with MSV2, uses a short skill move. A smoke cloud template blocks LOF to Trooper B, who is in zone of control. The ARO from Trooper B (no MSV available) is to declare BS attack against Trooper A (an invalid ARO, for now). Trooper A then targets trooper B with a BS attack by using MSV2. This validates Trooper B's return fire ARO, so there is now a F2F shootout. Is this type of thing same-category as above?
Please see the FAQ entry that I referred to up-thread: Q: How do LoF and ZoC Skill Requirements work? A: LoF Requirements must be fulfilled when declaring Skills. ZoC Requirements must be fulfilled during the Resolution step. A BS Attack ARO requires LoF to the target.
How do you not get LOF to something in Silhouette contact with you while a Zero Visibility Zone is involved? From Zero Vis: Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone. Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, Troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF or that require them to be in base to base contact with their target. Any Trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone may respond to the attacker, provided the Trooper is facing the attacker. However, in this situation, the Skills the target can declare in ARO, or as the second Short Skill of their Order, are limited to BS Attack with a -6 MOD, Dodge without the MOD, or any Skill that doesn't require LoF. (See FAQs & Errata. Sixth Sense and Multispectral Visor L1.) S to S LOF in basecontact never passes through the Zone. They share a common surface area where their Silhouettes touch. You technically can draw LOF from a point to itself and have LOF because that point is part of both Silhouettes. The 360° part of engaged only makes it so it can be part of your back arc. Care to explain where Zero Vis is involved here?
An example related to this thread but not asked directly above: A melee trooper is standing inside a smoke template within probable movement distance of an enemy trooper. As its first short skill it declares CC attack against the enemy trooper, which it is not it LOF of or silhouette contact with. The enemy trooper AROs with a dodge. As the melee trooper's second short skill it declares move and successfully reaches silhouette contact with the enemy. At resolution, is the CC attack legal?
Don't see anything preventing this. It's the exact same interaction as for anything that isn't relying on the LOF step during the Order Sequence. There's nothing stopping it.
Looks correct to me. Although I don't think there's any advantage to it since the reactive trooper will just ARO cc attack, and when the active trooper moves into sil contact, both cc attacks will become valid. So it'll be the same result as if the active trooper had started by moving into sil contact and then both declared cc attack.
‘The Line of Fire (LoF) is an imaginary straight line that joins any point of the volume of a Model, Token, Marker or valid target to any point of the volume of another.’ That line is passing through the zone, even if it’s infinitesimally short. Yes, although it’s not generally going to be much benefit.
I strongly disagree. It allows melee troopers to extend their CC threat anything from 5" to 10" from a smoke zone without being exposed to anything but hacking, CC or dodge responses on the way into melee, provided you can isolate your target (i.e. they aren't being covered by allies from afar - which admittedly they often will be). It may actually make getting into CC easier than it was in N3 when change facing dodges existed, by letting you condense the old idle-move into CC into a single immediate confrontation. The confrontation is fair - CC vs CC or dodge vs CC, it's not like the old bullshit where you could force change facing rolls against CC attacks - but it's very useful for CC models with smoke, especially with higher initial MOV values.
Oh, I see what you mean. I was picturing a smoke scenario, but you're talking about a unit around a corner. If you move first, the reactive unit chain rifles you. So you declare CC attack first, they have to respond with cc attack or dodge, and then you move into b2b. Yeah, that's big...
Basically any situation where you have to cross through a template or high value BS attack range to reach CC. It's also very useful when troops are in close proximity and you want to get into melee without taking multiple BS attacks (e.g. trying to get into CC with members of a link team). Knowing that it's legal, I'll experiment with it in coming games (have an event tomorrow). I'd be surprised not to get some use from it, but perhaps I'm wrong about the utility.
