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Cautious super-climb

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Belgrim, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. Belgrim

    Belgrim Well-Known Member

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    Probably a stupid question.

    Can a unit use super-jump as part of its cautious movement? My decision was that it cannot since it is an entire order skill.

    Also is it the same with climbing plus?

    Finally, something not related to cautious movement. Can a unit with both super-jump and climbing plus jump diagonally onto a wall and stay there hooked or does it fall down?
     
    #1 Belgrim, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    No to both.

    CLIMBING PLUS AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • This Special Skill alters the user's Climb Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.
    • Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.
    • Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move + BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface.
    • However, as with the Climb Skill, the user cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs as long as he is on a vertical surface.
    • In his Reactive Turn, the user of Climbing Plus may react in ARO normally despite holding onto a vertical surface.

    See the bolded part. C+ only gives you permission to declare other short skills but not entire skills.
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    This one I think was answered as "yes" somewhere, by CB staff
     
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  4. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I love that this is what we have to go on as far as rules. Talk about a symptom!

    FWiW: we played climbing+ as letting you do that and not fall down.
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    lol, yeah. It was a situation that would only affect Bran Do Castro regularly, however.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    I'm not aware of anything in the Cautious Movement text that would allow it:
    • Allows the user to move up to the first value of his MOV Attribute, generating no AROs to enemies in the process.
    • ...
    It's definitely not allowed:
    • Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move + BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface.
    So no Entire Order Skills.
     
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  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, until the Shikami gets some sort of Infiltration or FD it will rarely be seen on a table... :sob:
     
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  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Play on denser tables. No, denser than that. bordering on 'Warbands Paradise' dense, at least a ground level.

    Shikami are really fun when you can climbing+ or super-jump up a District 5 building, and then super-jump from one rooftop to another.
     
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  9. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a potentially important loop hole:
    * Climbing Plus model standing on a horizontal surface declares Cautious Movement, during that Cautious Movement it can travel along vertical surfaces.
    If it ends its movement on the vertical surface, it's next order is going to be subject to the Climbing/Climbing Plus restrictions. But that doesn't prevent it using an entire order skill to get there.

    Take a Preta or a Gaki with MOV 6-6, there's plenty of situations that 6" of movement could be enough to get from a horizontal position out of line of sight to a vertical position out of line of sight. Probably mostly getting off of rooftops, but still.

    The situations where you'd declare a 6" move with some vertical surfaces going up feel like they'd be a bit less common, that feels more like "I need to do a cautious move to get past this point, I'll have movement left over, so I might as well start up the side." It's a cautious move, you won't be able to dodge if you misjudged, so you might as well commit, right?
     
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  10. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    500 Euros/USD of scenery later...."FINALLY! I can make this mini viable! No really guys, the barrier to entry is low...oh"
     
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    But I have to admit, WHEN he works, he's actually insanely fun! xD
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That would still be a declaration 'while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface'.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I don't see how you go past this part:
    "Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move + BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface."

    The wording covers both cases of you starting on a vertical surface or momentarily traviling on a vertical surface.

    Edit: Ninja'd by @ijw
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of sounding a bit elitist, but that's the nature of these hobbies.

    However, we're talking about scenery here. The amount of stuff you can do with regular construction supplies is fairly significant and while we are realistically still talking about quite a lot of money, creativity will increase the amount of scenery you get per Eurodollar by an order of magnitude. Infinity is also very kind to your creative process given that the setting isn't so far into the grim dark future that you need to make your childhood toy car all gothic to use it, nor is it so alien that a few beer cans won't make an excellent silo or pressurised chemical container with a bit of paint. Hell, styrofoam, a steel wire connected to a 3R12 battery and a bit of news paper will go a long way (and if you're a parent arguably this is a good time to apply child labour). The risk should be that you're soon going to be playing on tables that are way, way, too dense for what the game is balanced for.
     
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  15. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not. That's declaring a movement skill while on a horizontal surface.
    So skill is declared while moving along or holding onto the vertical surface.

    Your interpretation requires that a model declare a movement skill continually along the entire movement path, which isn't what happens.
     
  16. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    A trooper declares Cautious Movement, as an entire order skill and then describes a movement path which includes 1" of movement along a vertical surface. The starting position of the model is on a horizontal surface, a flat rooftop. What skill declaration was made on a vertical surface?

    If you look at the bullet point, it's specifically talking about a trooper declaring a skill (like BS Attack) from a position on the vertical surface. That's not what the trooper is doing.

    The trooper declared one skill, from a legal position for that skill, and invoked:
    • Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.
    You're attempting to claim that the Cautious Move is somehow declared multiple times. That's not the language used by the rules. Look, for instance, at Move:
    • Allows the user to traverse the battlefield up to a distance determined by his MOV Attribute.
    • By declaring Move, the user may move up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches.
    • If the user declares Move again with the second Short Skill of the same Order, he may then move up to the second value of his MOV Attribute in inches.
    If a trooper declares Move+Move, it declares the skill twice. Not continually along the movement paths.
     
  17. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware, considering I have the entirety of the nomad and CA range, amongst others. The issue is I'd rather spend money on minis. Terrain is also an ass to store.

    That being said, I have two 3D printers making scenery amongst other things (like reviving battlefleet gothic), but again the issue is storage. Though now we're far into meta levels above the scenery rules.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hear! Hear!

    At some point I need to dive deep into my boxes, update the scatter, recycle what's terrible, and make a serious attempt at getting a single table into a single easy to store and move box. It'll most likely result in me forking out a significant amount on Q-buildings but even the stacking storage marvel that are Q-buildings are a bit big.
     
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  19. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's the other challenge. Generally Anything that isn't box-shaped eats up more space than you'd like for storage. The challenge is then accentuated if you consider trying to set up, say 8-10 tables for a tournament. There's a good reason I've kept a hold of the dozen or so cardboard building/shipping crate sets!
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    What makes you think that the Skill doesn't count as being declared along the whole movement?