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Cancelling Engaged and Dogged

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is possibly more of an opinion-fishing thread than a question, apologies in advance; see below quote from rules with bold emphasis added

    At the Conclusion of an Order, the Engaged state can be cancelled when all of a trooper’s adversaries are in Null or Immobilized state. When this happens, the trooper’s player must decide whether to keep the Engaged state, or cancel it by separating the trooper by 1mm from the adversaries. If all of an active trooper’s adversaries are in Null or Immobilized state the trooper can also cancel Engaged state by declaring Move (but following the structure of the Order) to separate from the adversaries.(From FAQ 1.4, Sep 2018)
    So, unless I am mistaken completely, and the situation is thus that a trooper (grabbing something completely at random; a Varangian Guard) that is engaged with an enemy (again, completely random, a Betatrooper) and they get shot by the Betatrooper's friend badly enough to have to activate Dogged.
    When the Varangian expires at the conclusion of the turn the Betatrooper is not allowed to choose to cancel the Engaged state with the Varangian and the Unconscious Siriusbot they are also Engaged with.

    Anyone else find this to be weird or have I missed something?

    (Had a mirror match against the winner of the German Masters this weekend, hence the weird unit choices. Working through the rules I found it a bit odd that he couldn't free his Betatrooper when I started my turn and removed the Varangian from the table - in hindsight, however, the Siriusbot wasn't Unconscious, it was Disconnected, and this is not a Null nor Immobilized state)
     
  2. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Cancellation
    • This state is cancelled when the trooper ceases to be in base contact with any enemy troopers.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engaged

    Only at the conclusion of an order they can choose to leave engaged, at any moment, engaged cancels if it ceases to be in base contact, this scenario works as written, it just is really a border case.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Still in base-to-base contact with a Siriusbot, which, to facilitate the example, is Unconscious
     
  4. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Yeah, being in base contact with an unconscious trooper shouldn't automatically cancel engaged, or else, you can never do a coup de grace.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you're missing the point.

    There is a clause that allows you to cancel Engaged voluntarily if all opponents are null or immobilized. My opponent wanted to cancel Engaged state so they could ARO against my troopers, but we found the rules did not allow him to do that because the Varangian died at the end of the Turn, and not at the end of the Order.
     
  6. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    No, i did get your point, you can cancel engaged at the end of an order if you are in base contact with null troopers, or when no longer in base contact with enemies, if you are engaged and in base contact with unconscious troopers you are engaged until one of the cancellation clauses is met.

    It's not weird or unexpected once you realice the option to cancel engaged at the end of an order was added on a FAQ, and before that you keep engaged until you spent an order or ARO to move out of contact with null troopers.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You seem to think I'm finding it weird that you can cancel Engaged while not everything is Dead dead. This is not the case.

    I'm finding it weird that this can be done at the end of an order but not seemingly the end of the turn even though all criteria conditions are the same.
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Eh, I don't think it's that weird
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think it’s an unintentional oversight.
     
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  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So you'd like to be able to terminate the Engaged state if the model is in contact with an active Dogged model? Because it is NOT null...
     
  11. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    No, he'd like to be able to terminate the Engaged state if the model loses base contact with an active Dogged model when it dies at the end of the turn. Because then the prerequisite of every opponent being null is fulfilled, but that happens not during any Order, so RAW the FAQ ruling is not applicable.

    I'd also add the case of Disconnected troopers here - they are effectively the same as Null/Immobilised (i.e. can't declare orders/ARO and thus present no danger to the troopers Engaged with them), but since the FAQ doesn't mention Disconnected state at all and it lacks the null label, you can't cancel Engaged if all troops you are in base contact with are Disconnected.
     
    #11 Gunmage, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Ah, ok. I misunderstood.
    But the Dogged model is removed at the end of the turn, so the problem is only when the active model is engaged with another "null".

    BTW, i like this side effect of Dogged...
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Right. This is a RAW vs RAI argument. I think RAW is quite unambiguous: you can't disengage since it's not the end of an order.
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    There's some stuff that has come up multiple times with Dogged not fitting neatly into general rules that assume the default timings for things. I think people have raised rules questions about how they interact with end-of-round ITS scoring and things like that, as well. Basically, the errata'd disengage wording presumes that models only die at the conclusion of orders, which is not the case for Dogged.
     
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