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Camo, LOF and delayed AROs

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Flüffytom, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Flüffytom

    Flüffytom New Member

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    Hi guys I've recently gotten back into Infinity and I'm quite rusty. The following scenario has taken place in quite a few of my games now and am unsure if it is correct.

    Lets say that a camo marker begins a movement outside of LOF and moves across the view of 2 opposing troops. The ARO of troop A is to delay and Troop B chooses to discover. The camo marker then chooses to continue it's move, ending its move outside of LOF of troop A. Troop B successfully reveals the camo marker with its discover.

    Does Troop A now get to declare shoot? - my current thought process is that actions in Infinity are happening "simultaneously" therefore if the camo marker reveals itself or is revealed by a discover ARO it would be considered revealed for effectively its entire order and can therefore be shot at by troops who had previously delayed.

    My opponent who's fairly new but very very good at war games believes that because the the now revealed marker is outside of LOF to Troop A the attack cannot be performed and is lost.

    Is one of us correct? Or have we both gottne mixed up somewhere?

    I feel I had read on the Wiki somewhere for discover that my friend is correct and so we have been treating his interpretation as the correct ruling for quite a number of our games.

    Thanks everyone in advance!
     
  2. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This is the correct sequence :
    1) 1st short skill : Trooper C (camoed) declare move and cross A and B LoF
    2) A choose to delay, B to discover
    3) 2nd short skill : trooper C choose to move again
    4) C second short skill did not reveal him so A looses his ARO
    5) resolution step : B rolls for discover, his roll is a win and C is discovered

    LoF on C at the end of the order does not matter here. When you delay in reaction to a troop in marker state, you only go to ARO if the active troop second short skill reveal him

    If the active troop second short skill reveals him, he is considered revealed during his whole order and so you can ARO him at any point of his move you have LoF on
     
    #2 Arkhos94, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hello and welcome to the game.

    The Order Sequence is the most important rules page of this game along with "all at once".
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence

    Basically, unless the trooper reveals before you get your second ARO chance, you won't get to shoot. Since shots and Discover rolls are made at the exact same time, the effect of removing camo state happens at the same time as damage would have been resolved and your trooper won't be able to shoot nor declare a skill.
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Welcome! The answer lies (as it often does) in the Order Expenditure Sequence. Found here: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence

    It follows these steps:

    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.

    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.

    3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.

    4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Playerchecks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.

    5 Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.

    6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.

    7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls.

    8. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.

    9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects.

    So in your specific example what happens is:
    1. Your opponent activates their Camo Marker
    2. They spend an order
    3. They declare Move with their Camo marker and moves into LOF of Trooper A and B
    4. Trooper A delays their ARO and Trooper B declares Discover
    5. The Camo marker Moves ending outside of LOF
    6. Trooper A loses their ARO as per the rules of Camo (below)
    7. Trooper B rolls their Discover roll and succeeds
    8. The Camo marker is revealed
    9. Nothing needs happen at this step.

    The relevant rule in the Camouflage and Hiding section is this:
    "AROs against CH Markers

    The only AROs available against a CH: Camouflage Marker (CAMO) or a CH: TO Camouflage Marker (TO CAMO) are Discover, Change Facing, and Dodge.

    Bear in mind that when reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH: TO Camouflage Marker, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill.

    However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO."
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Lol. Mine cited the actual rules as well as providing links so:
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Flüffytom

    Flüffytom New Member

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    Thanks so much all of you!
    Very grateful for the rapid replies!

    Time for me to get better at dealing with camo!
     
  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Like Han, I shot first so I win :+1:
     
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  8. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter why you delay? As in if you have Sixth Sense and the marker moves inside you zone of control and at least part of that movement is inside of your LOF can you delay because of Sixth Sense and if the marker does a Move+Move you can then do a Discover as your delayed ARO?
     
  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    If you delay due to your opponent being a marker (camo, impersonnation...), you only get an ARO if your opponent do something that reveal himself (attack, dodge...)

    If you delay using 6th sense lvl 1, you get an ARO no matter what your opponent do. So in this situation, yes you can discover as a delayed if your camoed opponent do move + move and you have LoF at him. (as a rule : without very good reason never enter a SS ZoC or even worse a camoed SS ZoC, like a chasseur)