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Calculating objective points when a player concedes

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Pacer, May 19, 2018.

  1. Pacer

    Pacer Member

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    How many objective points/tournament points do you give a player when his opponent concedes the game?

    It's an odd issue, but in our local tournaments we have one or two players who concede when the game goes against them. They haven't lost, they aren't in Retreat! and they might even have a slim shot at winning, but they don't want to carry on playing either.

    It's a problem when calculating the results of a match, since the two players might be tied, or the other player might be able to get more objective points to score a Total Victory and get an edge during tie breakers in the tournament ranking. If you award him the score that he has at the moment, you penalise him. You can't give him the maximum potential objective points either, since that gives him an advantage over the other tournament players. And guessing what he would have realistically achieved is hard, since dice are involved; he could flub the rolls he needs to achieve objectives. It's also not something covered in the ITS rules.

    What would the most equitable way of dealing with concessions?
     
    HellLois likes this.
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The most equitable way of dealing with concessions is to do away with the major/minor victory dichotomy, and have the first tiebreaker be Strength of Schedule. Otherwise it's always going to be a clusterfuck.

    As it stands conceding in a game hurts your opponent pretty significantly. So does getting a bye.
     
  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's a very frustrating subject. Typically I would encourage all players to fight to the bitter end! But I would say the only way of doing it is that if your opponent concedes, they get 0 pts, you get max points. While that is not ideal in of itself, I feel like it's the only way not to penalise someone who's opponent caves.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah, but that definitely leaves things open for collusion, because it's not just a win, it's a win that will outcompete people playing legit games. And what if someone just concedes at the bottom of turn 3 because they know they can't score any more points? Does that count?
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Collusion between two people playing in the same match are impossible to prevent, because even if one player doesn't outright concede to their opponent, they can still choose to completely roll over and allow them to do everything as quickly and easily as possible. The end result is functionally equivalent.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a good point.
     
  7. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    A thing our store does is call into sportsmanship of the person doing the conceding.

    Give warnings, removal of participant from the entire event, and even banning from future events if the action keeps occurring.

    The reason is because conceding, regardless of how many points the remaining player gets, is effectively unbalanced and can ruin the tourney for that player and for others as well.

    Just saying "i don't think i can do anything more to stop you from beating me 9-0 or 10-0" when understandably justified isnt a concede. Especially if the two players communicate with each other over how they believe the final moments of the game is going to finish. Saying "screw this game, I'm done playing against my opponent" when the game isn't in the final stages should not be a acceptable option to the players without very good reason.

    (Note i am speaking about tourney play)
     
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  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Giving the player who is facing the conceder max points is not satisfying as a solution but is the solution which penalises them the least, and I feel that's important. I agree that the real solution is to try and engender a sense of not conceding where possible.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  9. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    You could just continue playing the game and assume any triggered ARO's are idle.
     
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  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Sadly most conceders arent willing to stay there or keep their minis there to be shot at.
     
  11. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    some sort of default solution like this makes sense and have it announced before the event.
     
  12. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
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    And if this concede counts like a BYE?
     
  13. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    That could either give you points, you never could have made when playing regular or take an overwhelming victory from you. And in big tournaments, the latter might make it impossible to win it anymore.

    One possibility is to let the TO have a look at the game when it is conceded and give the winner all OPs he could have realistically gathered in the remaining turns. While not perfectly accurate, better tha a fixed outcome like a Bye.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's waaaaaay too subjective.

    Unfortunately, byes are often the kiss of death to your chances of winning a tournament. Until you guys get rid of the major/minor victory dichotomy and the use of objective points as a tiebreaker, it will remain this way.
     
    Rey likes this.
  15. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    In our meta we won't do tournaments with byes, period. The TO plays ringer. There's no fair way to handle byes with the way ITS is structured.

    My vote for concessions of the "eat shit and die" variety is a 5-0 victory with whatever models remain on the table. We haven't had one of those in a tournament for a year or two, though.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Tell them to harden up and play on.

    Or you give the player that beat them the 10-0, its the only way not to cheat them.

    If their is colusion between the two then you boot both players from the tournie and tell them not to come back. It will be fairly obvious if there is.
     
  17. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Last time I got a bye it cost me first place. Screw byes.
     
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  18. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    yeah, I know that kind of players very well, but over here, thankfully, no ones do it. It was an old experience comming from others games. But sometimes happends that the victory is so clear and they aren't any needs to continue, so we stop and calculate the points. If some objective remains uncontroled we made the maths. Can you chatch that console with yours 5 orders? Yes. How many of then to go there? Maybe 3 orders? So, you have 2 to try control it. I think is the best way to do this. Check the total amount of points and see what more you could do with your orders pool. I think the problem commes when the player retired without play at least the first turn. A "bye" sucks but I don't see other ways.
     
  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Well-Known Member

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    Player who doesn't concede gets max possible points from the current game state is probably the least worst option. So they get every point they could get if the rest of the game went completely their way (eg, they can't get points from objectives that require specialists if they have no specialists left, or could not conceivably make it to them, but otherwise get all of those).

    Every event I've played in gives 10-0 to the player who doesn't concede. But that is a bit much in their favour (and rewards people for making opponents rage quit) to be ideal IMHO.
     
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  20. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    What about you receive all possible points that you still possibly could have gotten.
    So if it was possible to still get 8 points but impossible to get 10 because your datatracker died round one then you get 8.

    Personally I would rather the full point scoring system was fully remade.
     
    chromedog likes this.