1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Cadmus questions

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Jonno, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    133
    1. Does cancelling the Seed-Embryo state also cancel Decoy?
    "Seed-Embryo - During the Order Count Phase of the Tactical Phase of the player's second or following Active Turn the player can choose to cancel Seed-Embryo state, applying the Developed Form Troop Profile."

    This is not an Order or ARO, and does not appear to fulfill any of the cancellation criteria for Decoy. To me, that means rules as written Decoy is not cancelled when using the "start of the next turn cancellation", but that seems a bit odd to me. The Developed Profile doesn't have Decoy, but Decoy just lets you deploy in the Decoy state, not having the Decoy skill is not a cancellation clause for the Decoy state.

    2. After Dispersing and being placed somewhere not allowed (no space, enemy DZ), are you allowed to daisy chain away from your DZ table edge?

    Dispersion - "If the dispersed element is a troop, such as one using certain Deployment Special Skills (AD: Combat Jump, Impersonation...), and the Dispersion places the troop outside of the game table, or in any location where it cannot be placed, or within the opponent's Deployment Zone, then the figure is placed anywhere within the limits of its owner's Deployment Zone in contact with one of the borders of the game table."

    Decoy - " After determining the final position of the Decoy, applying Dispersion if the PH Roll is failed, the player places the other two Decoys, following the Deployment general conditions. Applying the Decoy rules, one of the three must be the real user. "

    This reads to me that you first place one marker in your DZ on your table edge, then place the other two like normal (within 8" of at least one other marker).

    3. Does Hack the Transport Aircraft trigger an ARO, forcing the Hacker to choose that or no ARO, even if the AD trooper lands right in front of them? My understanding is yes, like other times when AROs are triggered early, like non-Stealth movement out of line of sight, even if you walk into base to base with the second short skill.

    4. Are the Developed Forms of Cadmus Private Information until they Hatch/Autohatch? I think not, as Seed-Embryo markers are not specifically included as Private:

    These pieces of information are Private in Infinity:
    5. Are KHD Cadmus hackable in their Seed-Embryo form? I think not, as the KHD is only on the Developed Shape.

    6. When using Morpho-Scan, can you choose which traits to copy and which to not copy? Eg when MOV is 4-2. I think not, as there is no "may".

    "Morpho-scan replaces the MOV, CC, BS and PH Attributes of its user with the ones of its target."

    7. If the Cadmus disperses with Combat Jump, can it daisy chain with Decoy into the Exclusion Zone or enemy DZ even if it didn't Disperse into it?

    Exclusion Zone. Troopers may not use the Airborne Deployment, Forward Deployment, Mechanized Deployment, or Infiltration Special Skills or the deployment rule of the Impersonation Special Skill to deploy inside of an 8 inch area on either side of the central line of the game table. The Exclusion Zone is not applied to troopers that suffer Dispersion.

    I think yes, as 1) it is Decoy, not Combat Jump, that lets you deploy there, and 2) the Exclusion Zone is not applied to troopers that suffer Dispersion.

    8. Can I choose to not receive the +3 from EVO to Combat Jump, eg if I was hoping to Disperse and thereby be allowed to daisy chain into the Exclusion Zone? I think not, as the EVO Hacking Device is an Automatic Equipment, and does not have any optional trait that I an see.

    "An EVO Hacking Device automatically provides a +3 PH Bonus to the Airborne Deployment Special Skill. This Bonus is not cumulative with the Controlled Jump Supportware Hacking Program, nor with the Bonus provided by other additional EVO Hacking Devices."
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    8,546
    1. The Seed-Embryo rules require you to replace the Seed-Embryo with the trooper's model, while this doesn't really handle what happens to the Decoys, at best the Decoys will remain looking like Seed-Embryos which will be a dead give-away.

    2. "Players must respect the general conditions of the Decoy user's Deployment rules." Decoy is very powerful in combination with Airborne Deployment, but there are limits. Due to the rules in the ITS document, you can ignore Exclusion Zones if and only if you Disperse, however.

    3. Yes, there is no way to perform a Hack Transport Aircraft skill unless it triggers an ARO prior to the trooper landing. The rules for Airborned Deployment are very explicit otherwise; Then, the trooper makes a PH Roll. If the trooper passes the Roll, he successfully deploys on his chosen location. AROs are generated taking only that location into account.

    4. You've answered this yourself. Private information has to be specifically called out and Decoy does not have the Holoprojector L1 effect that Holo2 does, regardless how similar they are.

    5. It's got a Killer Hacking Device, because of the way profiles are purchased. The Seed-Embryo would have to have a separate line with weapons if it had different weapon options similar to an Iguana's Operator. Right now it's written like a Su-Jian's two forms or a Maverick, the former certainly retains weapons in Mobility Form and the latter doesn't lose the Molotok but instead gains a few weapons while mounted.

    6. Morpho-scan does not imply you can pick and choose. The Cadmus is morphing into a shape closely resembling the target, it would make sense this also comes with the drawbacks (please don't mention motorcycles please don't mention motorcycles)

    7. Yes to Exclusion Zones, no to opponent Deployment Zones. ITS rules state that Exclusion Zones can be ignored by troopers suffering Dispersion, but it doesn't remove the restriction on placing the AD:ing trooper inside terrain features, off the table, or inside the opponent DZ.

    8. The exact way in which EVO Hacking Device was written; no you may not forgo the bonus like you would with the supportware program.
    I'm not certain this is intentional; clearly, though, the rules writer did not consider that you'd ever want to fail the roll.
     
    Jonno and WarHound like this.
  3. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    133
    Interesting, thanks for the quick reply.

    1. Makes sense to me.

    2. Do you then think you can daisy chain away from the table edge if you Disperse into somewhere illegal?

    3. Makes sense.

    4. Agreed, just wanting to check.

    5. So the Seed-Embryo also has a Boarding Shotgun, and can shoot at 6s within 8"? Or can Maestro on a 3, giving -6 to the opponent when coupled with Surprise Shot? I would say it cannot use Morpho-Scan, as that is only listed in the Developed Shape (otherwise you could get 6-4 S0 Red Fury's zooming around). This is pretty important in some niche cases when you need to stay S0, like dropping in next to an unconscious REM and using the Boarding Shotgun template to splash onto units hiding behind it without drawing AROs.

    6. I wouldn't say you could use the Motorcycle movement value, as it doesn't make real or in-fiction sense. Also this implies the need to be mounted on Motorcycle to enjoy the MOV benefits: "Units equipped with a Motorcycle have two separate pairs of MOV values in their profile. Use the first MOV pair when the trooper is riding his Motorcycle and the second pair when the trooper dismounts and moves on foot." RAW does appear to allow it however.

    7. Agreed.

    8. Agreed.
     
  4. Rift

    Rift Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    11
    We discussed some of the cadmus issues in this thread

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/solved-cadmus-and-open-information.35536/page-2#post-303609


    Looking at your question No 5.

    I believe the conclusion was.

    When the seed drops, all information is shared (as it's not a camo marker or holo and the information is open when it lands), but seeing as the hacking device is on the developed form it is NOT hack-able until it hatches, nor can the seed use any of the developed forms weapons.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    8,546
    2. No, you have to place ALL Decoys in legal spots.

    5. I don't think they intend this, but that's the consequence of how they present the profile in Army.

    6. Again, this is a consequence of how they present profiles in Army. Unfortunately they chose early on to print a specific profile for Motorcycles instead of tying the movement value to the motorcycle equipment exclusively.

    whether the Cadmus embryo has the guns and hacking device wasn't discussed in that thread, but Helllois conclusively provided answers on private info a few posts before yours. Could you provide a rules explanation for why you think the Embryo in its current state of Army doesn't have a Shotgun? Preferably in a way that doesn't also remove the guns from Su-Jian Mobility Form and the various motorcycles :p
     
  6. Rift

    Rift Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    11

    my answer was based on this reply to that thread
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    8,546
    After much searching I found it, please consider linking the source next time as people's memories are not infallible. It's not at all in a post about Chest Mines, but about Cadmus and Hacking. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/cadmus-seed-and-hacking.27898/#post-234122
    Basically, Army - which is supposed to have the most up to date information! - is wrong and the Profiles PDF is correct.

    @Koni is it possible for you guys to arrange an update to Army?
    Cadmus.jpg
     
    Jonno likes this.
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,895
    Likes Received:
    8,546
    P.s.
    Now I'm just confused, the Profiles PDF from which I took the above capture is noted as being from 2019-09-10 and is missing the Hacker profile and missing Decoy as can be seen above, but the Daedulus Fall Profiles PDF from 2019-03-27 has the exact same info as Army, including the profile layout which would have the Cadmus KHD profile be Hackable while in Embryo form.

    Is there a third PDF which IJW might've referred to?!
     
    Jonno likes this.
  9. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    54
    I was wondering similar things, since I'll be playing the Cadmus for the first time this weekend.

    Re 1. Does cancelling the Seed-Embryo state also cancel Decoy?

    I arrived at:

    "Whenever the Seed-Embryo state of the Seed-Embryo "bearer" is canceled, remove all the decoys at the end of the Order that happened."

    Since on Decoy:

    "The game mechanics of this rule are very similar to the Holoprojector L2 piece of Equipment and Holoecho state"

    And on Holoecho:

    "Whenever the Holoecho state of the Holoprojector L2 bearer is canceled, remove all the holographic decoys at the end of the Order that happened."

    This may not be watertight from the rules (since "very similar" is not a hard link) but works best for me and results in no decoy debris on the playing field.
     
    #9 Florian Hanke, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
    Mahtamori and Jonno like this.