Bronze point cost in comparison of new profile.

Hmm. I have never had to do with O-12 (no-one plays them in my meta), but Bronze has Immunity: Total. And Betatrooper has not. Which is pretty big of a difference on a W 2 / STR 2 HI.
Bronze also has better ARM & BTS.

And given his I:T, the only way to take him down is to brute-force through this ARM / BTS, and his two wounds. I mean - a lucky hit from a Missile Launcher (AP+EX) or Rocket Launcher (Continous Damage) can take a Betatrooper down rather easily. A Bronze would tank a hit, lose a wound and that's about it. Same with a number of toher tricks that could be used to get rid of a Heavy Infantry: Bronzes simply don't care. That's extra survivability.

Sure, Betatroopers have Mimetism, and are more mobile.
Bronzes, from my non-O-12 point of view, are suprpisingly lacking in the long-ranged weapons department: no HMG or ML/HRL. The heavy only weapon they have is a (solid, but mid-ranged) Red Fury.

Yes, the Bronzes are expensive. From the chart, they are apparently intended to be pointmen on Nyoka fireteams (good for close-range fights with their Multirifles or Shotguns, and their resilience - while the Nyokas bring in the inexpensive link filler and heavy weapons. They also share mobility traits).

 

This is hard to dispute. I still remember the day in N3 when an ASS fireteam, headed by Ajax, came against my Brigada team, and Ajax put 3 crits (which, let me remind you, meant one automatic wound each back in N1 to N3) on my Brigada Lt.

However, when being hit with a Panzerfaust or Missile Launcher in current N4:

• Betatrooper will be taking 3 damage rolls at 1/2 ARM.
• Bronze will be taking 1 test at full ARM.

They are tactically faster, indeed.
More efficient in trade? Sorry, but I don't understeand. They are defintiely cheaper, true.
Better burst and good range? How?

• The longest-ranged weapon of a Betatrooper is Spitfire, the longest-ranged weapon of a Bronze is Red Fury: they have the same optimal range (8-24"), and any difference shows up over 32" (Spitfire goes to -6 at that mark, while Red Fury stays -3 to 40" mark. Though it is a minor advantage, as engaging over such distnaces with these weapons is rare). While Red Fury normally has less Damage (13), the Bronze's one has +1 DAM, so it equals Spitfire in that. Burst is B4 for both. Spitfire has shock Damage, so it has an advantage against light targets.
• For close in job, Bronzes pack actually Heavy Shotguns, which give them a (slight, IMO) edge over Betatrooper's Boarding Shotguns.
• True, Betatroopers pack Nanopulsers, which Bronzes lack. OTOH Bronzes have Riotstoppers, which have theri own utility.

What do you call "a LM"?

What do you call an "ILO"?
Also, we're not comparing to Aleph troops here. Cross-faction unit comparisons are by definition skewed, because they are out of context. We're comparing in-faction against Betatrooper.

One to one, yes, Betatroopers are undeniably cheaper. Whether they are better, I wouldn't agree (although Mimetism definitely gives them an edge). They are different, that's for sure.

Let me try composing some Fireteams.

A "pure" team of Betatroopers:

──────────────────────────────────────────────────
5
BETATROOPER (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
BETATROOPER (Doctor) Boarding Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
BETATROOPER (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B), D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 37)
BETATROOPER Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 40)
BETATROOPER MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 37)
1.5 SWC | 183 Points
Open in Infinity Army

183 pts. It has a high-burst weapon, it has specialists for missions, it has a Tinbot to make it more resilient to hacking.

A "pure" Bronze/Nyoka Fireteam (because Bronzes count as Nyokas for that purpose):

──────────────────────────────────────────────────
5
BRONZE Red Fury(+1 Dam) / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 56)
NYOKA MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
NYOKA Heavy Rocket Launcher, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 19)
NYOKA (Forward Observer) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
NYOKA MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
2 SWC | 142 Points
Open in Infinity Army

142pts, a Specialist for missions (granted, only one), an additional, long-ranged heavy weapon. True, less ARM and Wounds - so relies much more on the Bronze pointman. So you might prefer to go for an extra Bronze:


──────────────────────────────────────────────────
5
BRONZE Red Fury(+1 Dam) / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 56)
BRONZE (Paramedic) Heavy Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone ( | MediKit) / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 53)
NYOKA MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
NYOKA Heavy Rocket Launcher, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 19)
NYOKA (Forward Observer) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
2 SWC | 173 Points
Open in Infinity Army

173 pts, so a bit cheaper than Betatroopers and still less ability to tank damage as a team, but now they have their own in-team medic (Betatroopers can't do that: while theri in-team Doctor can heal models, it can't help his own team members, as Betatroopers need an Engineer to repair them) - and one who's going to be difficult to unroot.

So, concluding, I can not agree with your claim that Betatroopers are better than Bronzes. Or that Bronzes are pointless.
They're simply different and made for a different playstyle.

I'm not saying you're wrong to prefer Betatroopers over Bronzes (even to the point of never-ever using the Bronzes, pinkie-swear!): de gustibus non est disputandum. But preference is just that: preference.

 

Those are French abbreviations

LM (Lance missiles) => ML

ILO (Infanterie Lourde) => HI

 

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm having really hard time understanding your posts. Please take in mind that English is a foreign language for the both of us.

Mimetism, true, is a significant advantage to Betatroopers. That is, till you are facing someone with a MSV, and then it ceases to be a factor. Cover, however, is quite common - and you need Marksmanship to exclude it from a Face-to-Face roll, and Template Weapon to exclude it from ARM roll. This also does happen, but I have a feeling it is way less common combination.
Also: to my knowledge, there is no way of going around the Immunity: Total.

As for Steel Phalanx' Hoplites, we're yet to see their full context (as in, how they can link). Still, I've already heard many dissatisified noises about "just ARM 3...?" Hoplites. Whether they are going to be played beyond initial "test phase" imn the wider community, remains yet to be seen.

No, I'm not going to show you a "good result in a tournament with a Bronze", because:

1. I don't play O-12. Nor know - personally - anyone who does.
2. I don't play "competitively", i.e. in tournaments, therefore I don't follow "tournament lists" and analyze whether a given unit shows up in them or not.

I'm in this hobby to have fun. Not to one-up people in highly competitive games. I still well remember the days before ITS was even a thing.

 

Why using terms everyone in the world understands if u are able to use cryptic acrynoms nearly no one knows

Spoiler

Maybe i should establish that aswell in my german community, like SchwInf, SchweRaWe, MaschPi,...
anyway...

I kinda lack the understanding, why someone should compare Betatroopers and Bronzes in the first place? Betas are a high mobility Mimetsimus Unit, Bronze is a slow bulky weaponplattform that can pack a punch. I dont realy see a Bronze walk around the battlefield as much as Betatroopers do. I would see him more like the stationary Heavy weapon of a defensive fireteam., if someone is into that.

 

That's assuming Bronze and Beta having the same role, but that's not true.
Beta, as you stated are better for offensive with 6-2 mov mim-3 etc..., but bronze are more tailored for defense IMO, i mean: Arm4, total immunity, but two more important thing you forgot to mention: 360° visor and courage.
Now put your Bronze on cover in supressive fire: -3 for cover & -3 for suppressive fire= -6. even if he loose a fire exchange and take a wound, he will remain there and won't risk loosing his supressive state thanks to courage unless you wish it. And if you placed him on a good spot ( climbing-plus surrely helps ) he will become a rude roadblocker.

 

The difference being MOV 4-4 on Bronzes vs MOV 6-2 on Betatroopers (ok, that's faster if you move-and-do-something-else. If you just move, this is exactly the same distance of 8"). They both have Climbing Plus. So, IMO, there is a difference, but yuo seem to be exxagerating how big it is :D
Bronze is as fast as most troops. Note: if accompanied by a squad of Nyoka (who seem to be Bronze's designated fireteam), they allm ove under the same MOV and Climbing Plus values. Which may be important...

 

You are right, I missed the Climbing + on Bronze.

I for myself cannot agree with the MOV beeing the same. I rarely use MOV-MOV orders, especially not since active Dodge let you bridge distance. When you MOV-BS three times, you leave the Bronze nearly a whole order behind, and thats a common combination of skills.
6 inches cautios movement, and climbing aswell. 6 inches of climbing means u are on the roof of most buildings. 4 Inches of Climbing means u are hanging on the wall (ok, thats based on terrain, but the Buildings in the starter sets are too high for Bronze to be climbed with one shortskill.

I value a unit with 6-2 way more than a 4-4 MOV, cause speed means flexibility, means less orders, means more options.

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly: Betatrooper is more mobile.

Personally, I find it not that rare to make a number of MOV-MOV orders. So, a MOV 6-2 is an edge over 4-4, but not something that makes the 4-4 an immobile slab :P
I mean, if we were to compare a 6-2 against the old 4-2... yes, it would be a very sigificant difference.

But I guess it is a matter of degrees in one's opinion.

 

I think you can compare units cross-faction up to a point, but what you can't do cross-faction is compare how well a unit can be expected to perform in the context of the list as a whole. Among other things, it is difficult to do a cross-faction comparison and take into account other units competing for the role - something that can make a unit that's considered good in one faction have a mirror unit in another be considered bad, both valid evaluations as long as you don't confuse why the sum total assessment leads those ways.

So with that said, looking at Hoplites I'd note that while Hoplites are not bad in melee in the way that e.g. Orcs or Wu Ming are, they are still not good. Hoplites have what I'd call tolerable CC, but not enough to actually make it worthwhile in most cases compared to just shooting. By comparison, Bronzes have slightly better CC ability while also having the absolutely strongest two CCWs in the game. Where Hoplites can at best expect their CC ability to drag anyone down in the mud and do a slow, order expensive, slug fest, the Bronze can actually expect to win against almost anyone that doesn't have Total Immunity or really extraordinary combination of CC skills at a reasonable order cost.
Tactically, Climb+ is also very important. Hoplites simply don't have this and the ability to run up a wall and use height for protection and assault is difficult to simulate but very real on the table. Here is essentially where the above comment on in-faction competition comes into effect. Yes, Betatroopers will do a more focused role better than Bronze, I think this is undeniable, but Bronze have a very wide array of competence that Betas don't have. Whether you get to use that array depends on you, your opponent and your terrain.

I think the price does check out just fine. Might have some internal balance issue, but I think that's more due to Betas having Climb+ which makes them so much more versatile than anything else.

 

Bronzes are very conservatively priced. I'd be happy to pay 53pts if they had a bit more armour, or better CC. As it is they are extremely expensive and a little pillowfisted.

 

The Bronze is gonna be hitting on 16s vs a martial artist, while inflicting a -9, or -6 vs a NBW - in effect a -6/-3 after MA. That's probably enought to bring his opponent down out of the 20s but not below his 16. It never has better dice against CC specialists. Against someone like señor massacre he's hitting on 16s vs 20s. Not bad at all, but not good. MA2 would be a big deal.

 

Senor has Natural Born Warrior and Martial Arts so Senor belongs to the absolute apex CC units and will be hitting Bronze on 21 vs 16.
Most other melee units, Bearpodes included, are going to be rolling low enough dice that together with Total Immunity it's just a waste of time to operate near a Bronze and if Alpha or Andromeda are nearby to peel them off the Bronze effortlessly they can't even hope to tie up an expensive unit.

 

The only thing I think we disagree with in this analysis is the frequency of units that have the ability to surpass the Bronze in that manner. The Bearpode suffers particularly, but it is rare in that it has neither NBW nor MA. Units like Chimera, al-Djabel, Ajax, Achilles, Shona, Liang, Jing, Pavel, Wulvers, UK, Wallace, Kaden, Nahabs, Rasyats, Jayths, Sargosh, Tyrok, Nourkias, Umbra, Daturazi, Sheshkin, Eudoros, Hector, Kendrat, Igao, Kielsaan, Makauls, Hippolyta, Cuervo, Kitsune, Mushashi, Domarus, Saito, Yojimbo, Oniwaban, Oyama, Tankos, Oyoroi and Shikami all come out on top by a little or a lot. Even something like a humble ninja with its surprise attack is getting one swing 17s vs 13s. Finally, to stand any chance against these specialists, the Bronze is forced to use its para cc, not its superior E/M. Most CC units have phys of at least 12 or 13, and many have 14 or 15, so the equivalent 'damage' of the para is pretty low.

Things like Diggers, Beasthunters, Doggos and Bearpodes all suffer vs the Bronze, and that's not nothing, but it's not fair to say the Bronze is expensive because it's superlative in CC, because it's just not. It can indeed make CC a pretty fruitless affair, thanks to its minuses and TI, but it can still get dunked on by actual specialists. (I'm only labouring this point because of my relevant experience with the unit!)

If you really want a para CC specialist I much prefer the Raptor's Devabot with a remracer cheerleader. 6-4, cybermasking, CC22, cheap as chips, with a heavy flame thrower! :D

 

You've listed some of the best that all the factions combined have on offer. There's some on that list that are in the top 10 of the game's CC units with the absolutely best (active turn) CC unit in the game among them. With only some exceptions (mainly the ones with NBW and a massive CC advantage) they are all going to be rolling odds that you just don't take (rule of thumb with melee is that as soon as you hit target values of 19 or below you find more productive use of your resources).
E.g. Liang Kai has 36% chance to deal a wound and 26% risk of being paralyzed.
Achilles pre-update has 40% chance to deal a wound and 22% risk of being paralyzed.
Achilles pre-update using a Spitfire is 65% chance with 26% chance of double and only 6% risk of taking a wound

And sure, you could opt to take more cost effective methods of accomplishing melee, absolutely, even if it isn't going to be the Racer-buffed CC that allows a Devabot to be annoying to anyone in that list. But I still think that the price of the Bronze is fair for the sum total of what it is capable of doing (and not just that the price checks out versus the formula).

 

I have indeed done just that! But I hope the point is taken that they are very far from being rare in the game or on the table.

With a few Homereid exceptions and the O-yoroi, they're all cheaper than the Bronze too. I have no problem with the Bronze's design space, but that space is ineffective at its price point. I've used the the Spec Op Bronze a few times with a varangian duo, and that opens up some cool interactions (eg. basing with the bronze and then berserking with the varangian for 2 DA dice at CC26 allows you to tangle with actual CC specialists.) I love the unit, love the model, just find it very hard to recommend.

I must admit that with the bearpode spam we're seeing of late, he might be a solid pick in a list tooled to respond to the meta.

 

I believe the amount you value Immunity (Total) is related to how often you have to deal with Continuous Damage. I think a Betatrooper has a 25% of being knocked unconscious by a light flamethrower. A Bronze does not have that worry.