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Balancing Posthumans

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Stiopa, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I was thinking about how to balance the unit, and it seems to me that the best way would be simply to raise the cost of G: Jumper skill. It wouldn't tinker with the - nicely improved - Proxy rules, it would be easy to apply, and it'd apply to all Proxies at the same time. How many additional points would make you feel that the unit is balanced? For me it'd be around 5 pts for the skill, so 15 pts for fielding three proxies.

    As a fun exercise he're a Mk.2, Mk.4 and Mk.5 blended together. How many points would you pay for this unit?

    Posthuman: Proxy Mk.Unholy Abomination

    MOV 4-4 | CC 13 | BS 13 | PH 13 | WIP 15 | ARM 3 | BTS 3 | W 3 | S 2

    G: Jumper L1, Infiltration, TO Camouflage, V: NWI
    Forward Observer, Hacker (AHD)

    HMG, Boarding Shotgun, 2 SMGs, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, Pistol, Knife - 56/2.5 (current values)
     
  2. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    I could see +5 points per proxy being okay, but not any more. There big weakness is being isolated - this hurts them so much more than any other unit (which my opponents are now doing far too regularly) spec em grenades from a druze or jammer Mutt means the end of that proxy - most other units could at least continue to ARO where as these proxies just shut down.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I am more interested in something different, like having all Jumper troops to use 2 slots instead of one, and I think we can expect an official nerf in line with the ITS 9 modifications to Hunting Party, Datatrackers and the like, where each body is a unit instead of being the Posthuman. Remove also the "I save this three posthuman bodies for last" (but not the "I need only 1 command token to move them between groups", since that would simply lock them).

    As for increasing their cost, it was reduced by 4-5 points between HSn2 and HSn3 ^^

    Also, consider how things go as a whole. Right now, the only truly "broken" proxy bodies are, I think, the mk1 medic/engineer and mk5 FO, since all the others cost too much SWC in a big spender army when it comes to SWC: in that regard, you will be hard pressed to see a Mk3 and an Mk4 on the same list, not to mention adding a Mk2 sniper to the mix (5.5 SWC there).
    Sure, the posthumans are cheap as dirt, but the cheapest real unit Aleph has, aside from the Mk1 and Mk5, are the Dakinis... which demand a hacker or TAG on the list, that you will surely use, but the need is there.

    So my opinion is that it's ok to nerf their pre-game gimmicks (list, deployment), but to increase their cost in points we would need a reevaluation of more troops. And the addition of some real HI troop that is not 68+ points nor a posthuman.
     
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  4. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    Possible unpopular opinion : I think Posthumans balancing is fine.

    Sure, if you just add the bodies and count the points they are a bargain. But they fill out roles that would otherwise be given to much much more expensive units (daysus, sophotecs etc.) and for some profiles you simply don't have any alternatives at all (Mk4 / Mk5).

    If they are so cheap, it's because everything else is so goddamn expensive. If they count one unit it's because we have too few orders.

    /s if they are good it's because the Asura is too expensive /s

    EDIT : God dammit, xagroth beat me to dissing the Asura ...
     
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  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    The cost of our other troops is at least partially balanced by access to Netrods. Which additionally enchance Posthumans by allowing us to keep the PH order even if enemy manages to get through all Proxies.

    That is true. MSV3 is not correctly priced after N3, and Asura's niche is additionally squeezed by other units. Achilles, MSV2 Deva, Mk.3 and Mk.4, Danavas... It might require a redesign, but it depends on the final OSS design. Without having to compete with Achilles she might have a place there as the top predator.
     
  6. SoMann

    SoMann Member

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    I agree.

    Most opponents I face that's afraid of posthuman think their profile is much better than the one in OP. When they realise they can blast them down with a link team or speculo they were at best a speed bump.

    If aleph would win everything I guess posthuman might have been a big deal but they aren't, at least not in my sphere.
    They are expensive, in swc and orders. Coordinated orders are an important part of vanilla lists and they have reduced usefulness there.

    Some claim that you don't lose an order with the to sniper but then, you never gain one from....

    Hunting party might be a scenario they excel at but perhaps it's more of a hunting party problem than posthuman problem.
     
  7. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Somewhat true, but that is obviously included in the price of Netrods because the more I use them and think about them, Netrods seem overpriced for what they provide. But that's a different discussion.

    More specifically, I listen to people complaining how I don't even lose an Order when they kill a Proxy, but what they forgot is that I never gain an Order from that body in the first place. Posthuman as a whole produces orders; imagine complaining that you do not lose an Order because of a Wound inflicted on a 2-Wound trooper. And total cost of Posthuman is still a bit high (unless you go minimalistic with Proxy Mk.I and Mk.V), in an army that does not have accessible cheap Orders (yes, we have Netrods, but they are actually there to follow up on the same problem). Aleph is extremely Order starved due to inflated cost of various profiles (due to good stats, but not amazing stats).

    :joy::joy::joy::joy:

    Asura is right now on its last legs, and it is not due to internal competition. If Vedic does not have smoke, she will only be seen in deliberately underpowered lists, and if it gets smoke, she will still be seen once in a blue moon. Everybody (obviously an overstatement) and their grandmother sectorials now have access to 4-4 ARM5 BTS6 Heavy Infantry model, MSV3 special features are marginal at best, proliferation of access to White Noise makes it a liability more than ever before, and NWI has been overpriced even before the newest FAQ hit.

    Back to Posthumans. I think they should increase the price of Mk.II and Mk.V FO by a few points and that would be enough. Sure, Posthuman Proxies are great profiles, but with enough limitations. Not to mention they collectively serve to enable wider playstyles across faction, serving the same function if in a completely different way as cheap Orders in other factions do.
     
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  8. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I disagree in that netrods are not really cheap. They are cheap if we see cheerleaders as only orders on feet. But they are not cheap in that traditionnal cheerleaders give far more than just orders: speedbump, camo detection, deployment zone protection (vs AD ...), they can even be backup specialists (for ex. our very own thorakite FO) - or can simply move to contest a quadrant or something.
     
  9. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    Exacly, in most of my games the Mk2 hacker is a nasty speed bump. Most proxies are not going to rampage through the enemy lines leaving a trail of devastation as any Phalanx character would.

    They are mostly support / specialists / anchors
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I disagree with both notions; that Proxies amount to speed bumps and that Netrods are overpriced.

    First of all, every unit amounts to a speed bump in this game. Get Swiss with HMG or Multi, put it in a Suppression Fire in a good spot, and opponent will still find a way to deal with it, despite it being a very strong unit in a good position. And Proxies are just as functional as any other unit with the same stats. Mk.2 is basically a Dasyu with +1 BS and +1 WIP while being a whole 18 pts. cheaper. Same goes for others. When fielding three Proxies we're saving somewhere around 40-50 pts we'd have to pay to get three different units with similar abilities. Under these circumstances the argument that we're not getting an order with each Proxy loses its edge.

    As for Netrods: Regular order at 4 pts. apiece would find its place in every army, even when you can have a Combi trooper for 9-10 pts, or a warband for 5.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I can buy a Mk1 Engineer, a Mk2 Sniper, and a Dakini for 10 points less than a Spektr Sniper and Clockmaker.

    Same amount of orders, but the Proxies get nanopulsers, NWI, and higher BS. Oh, and a Dakini to back them up with points left over for a pair of Netrods.

    That is too cheap.

    I don't buy the "other options are expensive" line. Morats and Onyx have 14 point line infantry. Ikadrons are nice but come with a hacker tax and don't really compare to PHs.
     
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  12. Arlic

    Arlic Active Member

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    They seem to be to cheap. But ist there a proof? We save ~50 Points to regular units, If we take 3 proxies. Thats 1/6 from 300 Points.
    Do Aleph win more games in average? They should if they would be to cheap. Do we have Tournament statistics? Im really curious about that
     
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with other opinions here : I don't feel like the proxies are overpowered.

    Taken by themselves they are cheap but so are units in every army (spetsnaz HMG, ghazi...) if taken on their own. You have to take the unit in the context of the whole army.

    Taken in the whole Aleph army, I don't feel like proxy are that cheap. The whole 3 proxy group cost at least 41 points for only one order. For an army without true cheap cheerleader (netrod are not fully reliable due to AD) and with most of its troop quite costly (ex : our "base" SK is 28 points) it's a raisonable cost : not to high, not to low
     
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  14. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I like that many factions have there own "are you kidding" troop. Post humans are what you give up to get fireteams.
    Now without game data I don't feel comfortable calling it unbalanced.
     
  15. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    I feel quite comfy calling the posthumans unbalanced ie. too cheap.

    In the same notion I feel quite comfy, saying that the elite nature of an aleph list might not be the most optimum choice in this game. But compensating for this, by making PH too cheap is just invalidating the points system.

    I liked how PH used to be balanced, with each body taking up a full trooper slot in a group. It wasn’t too bad of a tax, but still the discount came with a price. The other ‘balancing’ rules were usually more of a nuisance, and so not worth it, but the body count was a nice one.
     
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  16. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I've given quite a bit of thought to the post human problem as an ardant Aleph and Nomad player.

    On its face post humans are rediculous between real wounds and NWI you get nearly 6 effective wounds, 2 can have TO and 2 can have mimitism for ~50 points, with elite stats to boot. I imagine how much a 6 wound model would cost and I boggle at the bargain. Yet at the same time, haveing 2ish wounds on 3 models spread accross the board isn't the same as 6 in one place. There are pros and cons to both set ups.

    Or we can consider 3 post humans and 3 net rods compared to nearly (all?) other combinations of models for a similar point cost that generate 4 regular orders, and I can't imagine anything else looking better. Maybe I am wrong?

    I'm not sure how much I would add to their point cost though, I agree that the models paying heavy SWC costs are less problematic, if you spend all your SWC on post humans it really limits your build options. The doc/engineer/FO and probably AHD are too cheap for what you get in my opinion, I wouldn't mind paying more for them.

    Yet at the same time I recently played my Nomads into another Aleph player who I believe to be excellent at this game in a tournamet two weeks ago, and I didn't feel disadvantaged... he took the FO, Sniper and I think the doc or engineer, and I still managed to win.

    I don't know, even mutts don't bother me anymore, sometimes things take special tactics, Mutts are annoying and they do require special tactics to counter. Post humans are elite, and bargin bin priced, but they die just like any other unit in this game...

    I wouldn't mind other things to fix them either, though I really would not like them taking up individual slots again, thats a much more significant defect to your list building options then I think some people are giving it credit.
     
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  17. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    It’s not as much a question of balance up against other armies, but how the unit is balanced against other Aleph troops. There simply aren’t any reasons not to go with the superior, yet discounted posthumans.
     
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  18. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    Yes, in vanilla, much like there isn't a reason not to take mutts in Haq. Though we also probably both agree that mutts are not the poster child of balance. I do think that there are supposed to be units that are faction defining perks, and I believe post humans to be that unit for Aleph, which coincedetenally was a fluff reason for me being interested in Aleph in the first place.

    I'm not sure if "encouraging" people to use faction perks is a bad thing, so long as it doesn't throw off inter faction balance. Units like Kuang Shi, or even in my case Interventors are similar reasons to play other factions. You ALWAYS have the situations come up in vanilla where there is a more optimized unit, I never take custolders in vanilla anymore because KHDs are way too dangerous for such an expensive model, Interventors are cheaper and less likely to die and better at hacking. I don't think that there is a significant intra faction balance problem between those two, custoldiers are an interventor subsitute for Bakunin.

    The effect of the FO/Doc/Medic post human is you get to take one of those instead of a daikini paramedic for your cheap specialist needs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the MK 3 or 4s are out competing against Asura/Hector/Achillies. I think Asuras are disfavored generally, and if you want to take the other big boys, its somthing that defines your list and you build the list around them. The budget beaters are just that, and not especially impressive at it. The MK2 is in a different place, that fact that she has an AHD instead of a KHD is nearly balanced as is against daysus or nagas, I vastly prefer KHDs to AHDs, and that lack of that option forces me to bring other hackers along. I certainly see that arguement of the MK2 sniper over the daysus, but personally I rarely field either, though I agree its a valid arguement.

    Anyway its not to say that I am certain that post humans are okay as is, they may need some adjustments, they may not, but in my experience using them, and playing against them, I'm not sure they are OP, they may be simple not quite balanced, or maybe they are okay.
     
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  19. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    There is a big difference between regarding posthumans as too cheap or unbalanced, and thinking vanilla Aleph to be OP. I don’t think anyone is claiming the latter.
     
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  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I'm not saying Posthumans are OP, but they certainly box above their weight. Especially when compared to other Aleph units in the same category.

    I'm also not buying the "signature units" argument. Such units are examples of bad design, not highlighting faction traits. Aleph has ODD, NWI and Nanopulsers for everyone and their dog. Haqq has Doctors+ instead of Paramedics and above average WIP. Tohaa have Symbiont Armour, Triads, and great flexibility. These are examples of faction traits done well; they emphasize certain playstyles and aspects of the game, while making a specific units just plain better ends up with them being an autoinclude.

    You can enchance units in a certain way and still call it balanced. YJ HIs are a bit better optimized than other faction ones - not by getting a discount, but by getting a small but useful skill or stat here or there, and not getting unnecessary bloat stuff most of the time. Same goes for PanO TAGs, Nomad MIs, Haqq LIs. It makes leaning your lists in certain direction easier, while not making any particular unit a must have. Look at Su Jian - you might very well call it YJs signature unit. It's a pinnacle of human HI engineering. It's still not an autoinclude, and it doesn't tower over other YJ HIs like Posthumans tower against similar Aleph units.
     
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