So in a situation of executing a Speculative BS-attack with smoke grenade through existing Zero-visibility zone(but provided there is LoF) against an enemy trooper who is lacking MSV but is facing to the attacker: Does an enemy trooper gets to deal a BS-attack ARO as in a third bullet of Zero visibility zone: Any Trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone may respond to the attacker, provided the Trooper is facing the attacker.
@JoKeR Let's say I'm throwing a smoke aiming at the spot on the game table and smoke touches an enemy trooper's silhouette. But I would be indeed interested if aiming spec.fire exactly in enemy trooper has any different outcome. :)
They are not the target of the smoke (a point on the ground is, Targetless) so they cannot "return fire". If their Silhouette is the "target", I think they can return fire because they are the target of the BS Attack, as per last bullet point of Zero Vis.
Targetless This weapon utilizes a Special Ammunition capable of firing without designating an enemy as a target. Sorry, I'm no native english speaker but I thought the word "capable" implies that this type of ammunition may be used to perform a BS-attack without an enemy model declared as a target and not that it has overrides Area of Effect wording: Area of Effect ... if you declare an Attack using a Template Weapon, all Troopers or targets in Silhouette contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack.
Sure, but the Zero Vis rule that allows you to return fire specifically mentions "any trooper who is a target of a BS Attack". The model who happened to be in the splat wasn't the target. It's a Targetless weapon, the target was a point on the ground. If it mentioned "any trooper affected by a BS Attack", it'd be what you're describing.
"All Troopers or targets in Silhouette contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack." How does one interpret presence of words troopers or targets in Area of Effect wording? Why only word affected been taken into consideration? Do you think that if smoke ammunition deals no effect to any troopers across its... Area of Effect then there are no targets of BS-Attack to be found?
Smoke is an attack and anyone under the template is attacked. There are no longer any rules that kindofmaybe makes it a non-attack. Whether it deals damage is only relevant if the affected target is a neutral or friendly unit. Be careful what spot you select as your target if you want to avoid return fire (that will be a face to face, of course, unless they have MSV)
My point exactly. They might be affected by the Smoke, "attacked", but they're not the target unless the smoke deploy point was within their Silhouette.
That's not at all my point. Anyone affected by an attack is a target. In case of a template weapon, there is a Main Target and there are other targets, but they are all targets.
This was confirmed by ijw in the case of normal template weapons like a missile launcher in N3, and doesn't seem to have changed in N4. I'm not as certain as Mahtamori is that the same rule applies to smoke, such that you can return fire through an existing zero viz zone. I can definitely see the argument for it, but smoke is so exceptional that I'm not sure it's clear what's intended. I think it's unresolved, though I wouldn't be surprised if it does eventually get ruled the way Mahtamori proposes.
How so, when Targetless specifically says the point on the ground is the target, not a Trooper? Smoke is a BS Attack, because that's required for placing a Template. It however doesn't attack Troopers though, it deploys a Zero Vis Zone. Circular Impact Template also specifically mentions that it affects all Troopers under the Template, not targets them. The Target is an area on the game table. An area under the Template, not Troopers under the Template. https://infinitythewiki.com/Impact_Template_Weapons
The issue is more whether Spec Fire procs the BS Attack through Zero Vis rules. Whether it's a Smoke Grenade or a regular Grenade is irrelevant (or at least separate). My gut feeling is that it's a BS Attack targeting a trooper in a Zero Vis Zone so it will.
Because everyone is the target of the template which as of N4 is an attack. The point on the table is the main target for the template as per the template rules
Crits vs the Main Target still automatically win other FTFs they just don't apply additional effects:
That's a good observation, I hadn't considered that. I'm trying to think whether there is something specific to Smoke that would make it different from a normal template weapon, but the rules only seem to leave it implicit that a crit with smoke is a crit against all targets. @inane.imp Bob is referring to this rule: Critical Hits with Template Weapons: When a Critical is rolled when using a Template Weapon, it counts as a Critical against the Main Target of the attack, and only the Main Target. Against other targets affected by the Template, it is a successful Roll instead of a Critical. @Nuada Airgetlam I'm referring to this rule, seeing how there is nothing that says smoke ammo removes the fact that this is a weapon that requires a roll: Responding to a Template Weapon Roll: Against an Attack with a Template Weapon that required a Roll to hit–whether it was an Impact Template Weapon or an Intuitive Attack, etc., each affected enemy may make a separate Face to Face Roll against the attacker. Both are located under Area of Effects on this page: https://infinitythewiki.com/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment
That's a non sequitur. Doesn't matter what requires a roll or is affected. It matters what is a Target. You don't get to fire back at a smoke tossing Daturazi when the smoke touches your Trooper because the Trooper is not a target. The area of the table is the target. None of the rules you mentioned make the affected Trooper a target. Being affected and being a target is a huge difference, especially with something that doesn't really affect your Trooper and instead creates a Zone on the table. When a Hacker creates a White Noise zone around him that touches your Trooper, do you get to fire back at him if you have MSV? The only way your Trooper is affected is by the changed rules of that area of the table, the zero-vis zone.
