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ARO validity and range at Resolution step.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Diphoration, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Greetings.

    I have a couple of questions regarding the validity of ARO and more specifically range validity (as it is chosen at the Resolution step)

    Please provide text sources if something is wrong. <3

    - - - - -

    FAQ entries that are relevant to my questions
    What happens when a Direct Template Weapon in ARO misses the target because it’s out of range? Does it affect the other troops inside the Template or does it get cancelled?
    The Attack is cancelled.

    When do you choose which point of the movement path the BS Attack (or any other similar Skill) is performed? In the Resolution step, when the players are about to measure distances. In case the order of declaration is important, the active player is the one who chooses who must declare it first.

    In the reactive turn, when can you measure the Zone of Control? Following the steps of the Order Expenditure Sequence: you declare a ZoC ARO, and in the step of resolution, is when the players take measurements. So, is troop is in the ZoC, resolve his ARO, but if not, the ARO is lost.


    From what I understand, declaring the skill while the enemy is out of range does not matter, so long as they end up within range at the resolution (where the distance is then calculated)?

    - - - - -

    Does that mean I can explicitely declare a ZoC ARO, such as a hacking program, if I know my opponent is 10 inches away, just to prevent them from moving inside my ZoC? (Since we only check to see if the target is in range at resolution)

    Does that mean I can explicitely place down a Direct Template Weapon ARO, if I know my opponent is 10 inches away, just to prevent them from moving inside that template area? (Since we only check to see if the target is in range at resolution)

    - - - - -

    Thank you very much for your time!
     
  2. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    1.- Yes, you can declare a ZoC ARO and then fail at resolution.

    2.- No, template weapons are placed at declaration, failing inmediatly if they are out of range. (This way you check who is affected at the same time)

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment

    Place the Template down when you declare the Attack to determine what the Attack affects, as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs.
     
  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    2. Isn't range calculated only at Resolution step, meaning that they are not out of range until they declared their second short skill. At which point, they could move inside the area and be affected? "as that might influence the possible second Short Skill and AROs."
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Templates are a modified version of a BS attack that must be placed immediately.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    From the same page that Ayaxs quoted:

    • Teardrop Direct Template (Chain Rifle, Flamethrower, etc.): Place the narrow end of the Teardrop Template (Blast Focus) contacting the edge of the attacker's base or Silhouette Template. All troopers affected by the Template suffer the Attack (see diagram).
    As you can see, it is impossible to place the template down "speculatively" because you are required to place it so it touches the primary target, and it is required to place it immediately upon declaration. In the case the primary target is not able to both touch the shooter's silhouette and the target's silhouette you have declared a skill that you can't fulfil the rules for and it becomes an Idle.

    In other words, templates are absolute and not a distance to be measured.
     
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  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    That might be nitpicking, but from that quote, it doesn't mention that the template must touch the primary target. It simply states that the troopers affected by the template suffer the attacks.

    It also says in the other quote that it is influenced by the possible short skill or ARO.

    Figuring out the range at declaration would still work and make sense even if we followed the quoted text. Even if you actually place down the template before they declare their second short skill.
     
  7. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    You might want to read the whole rule.

    upload_2019-9-16_13-8-28.png
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're not being nitpicky, I noticed this myself and am searching for a more convincing answer.
     
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    That rule still supports my understanding.

    The attack is cancelled if the target is out of range.

    Range is checked at the Resolution Step (after the second short skill)
     
  10. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    For template weapons you measure range with the template, that is put on declaration, you don't wait for resolution to measure, as this kind of weapons have an exception, quoted before.
     
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  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    There is also the differences between direct templates and impact templates. Both forms of templates have you immediately place the template to see who is affected by said template, but in the case of impact templates the range to the primary target matters, and is checked at resolution.
     
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  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    the range is not measured to the primary target necessarily. if the target moves-moves for instance. its measured to the target when he was standing at the point that you fired the template at.
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, I only meant to say that you never measure range with direct templates, but do with impact template and when you measure it.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Right. Here we are.

    You are never told when to check for whether a skill fails or not, as such you are expected to always check it against any known conditions. What makes measuring have a timing is that you're not allowed to know the condition until a given point in the order expenditure sequence.
    For a DTW the condition of whether you reach the main target is immediately known.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence
     
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  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Semi-related question.

    If I were to declare a pistol ARO vs a trooper at 25" and they then proceed to move within 24", would my attack be null? Or would it be okay as the measurements are taking at the Resolution step? (Similarly to how the FAQ was done for hacking -see the first post-)
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    For a non-template weapon you choose the exact point of attack after all skills have been declared, so in this case you would choose to attack at a point they were in range.
     
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  17. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, my post came a bit out as "an actually". Was piping in mostly to inform those who don't know for I have seen many people get tricked up by that.
     
  18. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    If you declare a pistol ARO vs. a trooper at 25" and then they proceed to move within 24", see the FAQ:
    Q: When do you choose which point of the movement path the BS Attack (or any other similar Skill) is performed?
    A: In the Resolution step, when the players are about to measure distances. In case the order of declaration is important, the active player is the one who chooses who must declare it first.

    In the resolution step, you choose where to fire at the model. It doesn't matter where they were when you had the ARO.

    Note that at this point you appear to be having a discussion of apples, oranges, and watermelon. That's a good discussion to have if you're attempting to discuss the wide variety differences among fruit; and a bad discussion to be have if you're going to try to dismiss those differences.

    Because note that what the rules say is:
    BS Attacks against a target farther than the Maximum Range of the weapon fail automatically without a Roll.​
    and the FAQ added to that
    Q: What happens when a Direct Template Weapon in ARO misses the target because it’s out of range? Does it affect the other troops inside the Template or does it get cancelled?
    A: The Attack is cancelled.​

    The rule for BS Attacks is that they fail without a roll if the target is out of range. The rule for templates, as a specific type of BS Attack, is that the attack is cancelled. That's the "discussion of fruit in general" vs. "discussion of apples, a specific type of fruit". ZoC measurement for hacking is "discussion of tomatoes", for obvious reasons. :imp:

    If you declare a pistol ARO at 25", and the target doesn't move, your attack doesn't become null. It just automatically fails.

    Note that this is why the FAQ in Suppressive Fire exists
    Q: If I declare a Suppressive Fire ARO beyond 24”, does the -3 MOD for the Suppressive Fire apply to the opponent?
    A: No. As the target is farther than the maximum Range value, the attack fails automatically and there is no FtF Roll so the -3 MOD of the Suppressive Fire State doesn’t apply.​
    Because people noticed the attack isn't cancelled, and as such the modifier would still apply.